[HPforGrownups] Re: Teaching Styles

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 147942

On 10 Feb 2006 at 11:39, festuco wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at ...> wrote:
> 
> > Maybe this will make things clearer... I don't think there is 
> > anything inherently *wrong* with Snape's scolding Neville 
> > severely when he makes basic mistakes in Potions classes. I don't 
> > think that that is inappropriate.
> > 
> > *BUT* I do think that it is probably counterproductive. That method 
> > might work with most students, but I do think that Neville as an 
> > individual would probably respond better to less stressful correction 
> > of his mistakes. And I wouldn't have any problem at all, if Snape saw 
> > that and decided that *with Neville specifically* a different 
> > approach might be a better one to use. By the same token, I believe 
> > that if he did that, he would be affording Neville a privilege - not 
> > a right.
> 
> Actually, a really good teacher would see that his approach would be
> counterproductive and would at least try and change it. It has nothing
> to do with priveliges or rights but with his job requirement. A
> teacher has to teach and an effective teacher is one where students
> learn something. Snape is quite all right as a teacher, but he is not
> flexible enough to be a truly good one.

I disagree (but is that surprising to anyone?).

Even the best teacher will not always be able to find a productive 
method of teaching a particular child. It seems to me that some 
people here equate the idea of a 'good teacher' with  being a 
'perfect teacher'. They seek to hold teachers to an impossibly high 
standard. To be considered a good teacher, they have to be a good 
teacher for every single child without a single failure. No teacher, 
no matter how good, can ever reasonably hope to meet that type of 
standard, and expecting them to actually causes a lot of problems 
because it makes it much harder for a teacher to admit they need help 
even when help is available.

A teacher's job requirement is not to be an ideal teacher for every 
single student.

I don't disagree with the idea that to be an effective teacher, 
students need to learn - but does that mean *every* single student 
needs to be always learning at their peak efficiency? I basically 
didn't learn much at all at school from the age of 5 to 12 - and it 
wasn't because I had bad teachers (for the most part - I had a couple 
who I think were bad), it's just that what they were offering wasn't 
right for me - it was right for virtually everyone else in the class.

And while I have said I think Neville would respond better to a less 
stressful learning environment than Snape's class, that doesn't mean 
I don't think he's learning at all. I think he would learn *better* 
in a less stressful environment, but I suspect he is learning in 
Snape's classes, just not at peak efficiency.

As for flexibility - yes, some flexibility is important in a teacher. 
But a good teacher often has less reason to need to be flexible than 
a bad one. A teacher who is successfully teaching 95% of their 
students using their standard methods has far less reason to embrace 
flexibility than one whose standard methods only teach half the 
class. Too often in education, flexibility is treated as a universal 
virtue and it isn't - it can be a sign of problems. And bear in mind 
that a flexible teacher can be flexible in the wrong way, just as 
easily as they can be flexible in the right way. Sometimes 
flexibility makes things worse. I'll get back to that later.

> As for the Trevor incident: that was vile. There is no way a teacher
> can justify that.

Actually, I think that incident is extremely to justify. I have some 
problems justifying some other things Snape has done - but the Trevor 
incident - no problem.

Let's go back to the very first potion class we see, just to set the 
scene.

"Things didn't improve for the Gryffindors as the Potions lesson 
continued. Snape put them all into pairs and set them to mixing up a 
simple potion to cure boils. He swept around in his long black cloak, 
watching them weigh dried nettles and crush snake fangs, criticizing 
almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like. He was just 
telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his 
horned slugs when clouds of acid green smoke and a loud hissing 
filled the dungeon. Neville had somehow managed to melt Seamus's 
cauldron into a twisted blob, and their potion was seeping across the 
stone floor, burning holes in people's shoes. Within seconds, the 
whole class was standing on their stools while Neville, who had been 
drenched in the potion when the cauldron collapsed, moaned in pain as 
angry red boils sprang up all over his arms and legs.  

'Idiot boy!' snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away
with one wave of his wand. 'I suppose you added the porcupine quills
before taking the cauldron off the fire?'"

(PS)

I would point out three salient points here.

(1) The students are being asked to mix a 'simple potion'.

(2) Neville's mistake is an elementary one - he did not follow the 
correct procedure.

(3) Snape can tell from looking at the results precisely what mistake 
Neville made.

Now - let's look at the Trevor incident. In two parts. The first:

*****

"A few cauldrons away, Neville was in trouble. Neville regularly went 
to pieces in Potions lessons; it was his worst subject, and his great 
fear of Professor Snape made things ten times worse. His potion, 
which was supposed to be a bright, acid green, had turned -  

'Orange, Longbottom,' said Snape, ladling some up and allowing to 
splash back into the cauldron, so that everyone could see.  

'Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of 
yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat 
spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice 
would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, 
Longbottom?'  

Neville was pink and trembling. He looked as though he was on the 
verge of tears.  

'Please, sir,' said Hermione, 'please, I could help Neville
put it right -'

'I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,' said
Snape coldly, and Hermione went as pink as Neville. 'Longbottom,
at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion
to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you
to do it properly.'"

*****

Consider what this passage tells us.

This is over two years later - and Neville has once again made an 
elementary mistake. He has got the procedure wrong. It isn't 
complicated to follow a procedure. It doesn't require great skill or 
intelligence. Any student should be able to do this.

'What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?'

It's a very good question - because obviously if Neville after two 
and a half years is still making the same mistake in potions classes 
that he made in his very first lesson, something is wrong.

Obviously Snape needs to try something different if what he has done 
previously with Neville hasn't worked - Snape needs to be 
*flexible!*. I submit that the approach Snape takes - being 
apparently something he has not done before with regards to Neville 
is most definitely an example of flexibility in teaching - he's 
adapting and trying something else. You feel it's unjustifiable and 
vile. I disagree, but if we accept for a moment, for the sake of 
argument, that you are correct, I would just point out that this 
would then become an example of how flexibility is by no means always 
a sign of a good teacher.

But back to my position - where I don't think it's unjustifiable and 
vile. Or at least I don't think it's unjustifiable - it's vileness is 
much more of a gut call I think than something I can argue against 
logically.

Once again, from this second passage, I would raise two salient 
points.

(1) Neville's mistake are elementary ones - he did not follow the 
correct procedure.

(2) Snape can tell from looking at the results precisely what 
mistakes Neville made.

I'd like to elaborate on this second point. We know that Snape can 
tell what is wrong from a potion from visual observation. In this 
case, because the potion is orange he can tell that Neville has used 
too many rat spleens and too much leech juice. From the colour - he 
knows what Neville has done wrong. The potion is meant to be *green* -
 it's orange and that indicates the mistake made.

Now - let us look at the second part. The results:

*****

"The end of the lesson in sight, Snape strode over to Neville, who 
was cowering by his cauldron.  

'Everyone gather 'round, said Snape, his black eyes glittering, 'and 
watch what happens to Longbottom's toad. If he has managed to produce 
a Shrinking Solution, it will shrink to a tadpole. If, as I don't 
doubt, he has done it wrong, his toad is likely to be poisoned.'   

The Gryffindors watched fearfully. The Slytherins looked excited. 
Snape picked up Trevor the toad in his left hand and dipped a small 
spoon into Neville's potion, which was now green. He trickled a few 
drops down Trevor's throat.   

There was a moment of hushed silence, in which Trevor gulped; then 
there was a small pop, and Trevor the tadpole was wriggling in 
Snape's palm.   

The Gryffindors burst into applause. Snape, looking sour, pulled a 
small bottle from the pocket of his robe, poured a few drops on top 
of Trevor, and he reappeared suddenly, fully grown.  

'Five points from Gryffindor,' said Snape, which wiped the smiles 
from every face. 'I told you not to help him, Miss Granger. Class 
dismissed.'"

*****

Yes, Snape threatened Trevor. But was the threat real, or was it just 
a teaching tool? In my view, the evidence is reasonably strong that 
it is the latter.

We *know* that Snape can tell what is wrong with a potion from its 
colour. Presumably he can also tell if the potion is right from its 
colour. And when he carries out this experiment with Trevor - what 
colour is the potion? It's green. What colour is the potion meant to 
be? Green.

Snape knows that this potion is now correct. And that's when he gives 
it to Trevor.

So - what do we actually see in this class?

We see a boy make a careless and elementary mistake for the nth time 
in over two years. We see a teacher tell him *exactly* what he did 
wrong, and express frustration that this students is making such 
mistakes.

We then see the teacher try something new, because obviously what has 
been done in the past doesn't work. We see flexibility (good or bad). 
He provides the student with an incentive to get it right - he 
doesn't punish him initially, he gives him a chance to correct the 
mistake that he has explicitly laid out for him.

And then he lets the student correct that mistake - I'm fairly sure 
Snape knows that Neville is being helped by Hermione because I really 
would find it hard to see how he wouldn't know - and while he has 
expressed disapproval of the idea, he doesn't stop her from helping 
him. So he's letting the student who has made a careless error 
correct that error with the help of (probably) the most competent 
student in the class.

And he doesn't test what the students has done until there are clear 
indications that the mistake has been corrected.

Honestly - in terms of pedagogical theory, explicitly telling a 
student they have a made a mistake, explicitly telling them what that 
mistake is, and then given them an incentive and an opportunity to 
correct that mistake is something you'd find 
very few people disagreeing with. The precise details of how Snape 
did it - yes, some people would certainly object to the 
*specific* incentive - but the general practice is one most people 
would see as quite sensible.

It seems to me the argument against what Snape does in this case 
comes from one of two places.

(1) They'd utterly disagree with my scenario above and would not 
accept the idea that Snape might have actually been 
genuinely working towards a good teaching goal. Fair enough - I fully 
admit that I cannot prove Snape's motivations are 
those I describe. I merely submit that the scenario I have presented 
is fully compatible with the information we have.

(2) *If* they accept the type of argument I present (or even if they 
don't) they feel ihe incentive Snape offers is a cruel 
one. On this point, I can understand where they are coming from, but 
I offer the following observations.

While most modern educational theory seeks to emphasise the 
'positive' when it comes to disciplining students, that doesn't 
necessarily mean that such emphasis is necessarily universally true, 
or the only way to do things. There is a place for 
both negative reinforcement and even punishment in schools. Now, even 
I, who believes in the place of punishment fairly 
strongly, would agree that I think the positive is a better first 
choice in most cases - but there is a place for the 
negative. Sometimes to educate children, you have to do things that 
they will not find pleasant.

Things some teachers did to me at school, were certainly not pleasant 
at times. Having your dishonesty publically exposed 
in front of an entire class certainly wasn't pleasant - but it was 
justifiable - and it worked. Having a piece of work I 
had been grossly careless on presented to the entire class for their 
comment wasn't fun either - but again, it worked. 
Being caned really wasn't pleasant - but again, for me, it worked.

And if those things hadn't been done, I really don't believe I'd have 
later been as successful at school as I was.

The negative has a place in education.

I don't believe Trevor was in any real danger. But I think Snape 
thought he could teach Neville a very effective lesson by 
letting him think that he was. Did it work? I've no idea. To work 
that out, I'd have to know if Neville stopped making 
elementary mistakes.

But when what you've been trying for two years isn't getting through 
to a student, trying something different and drastic 
doesn't seem wrong to me.

Once again, I think people try to judge Snape through modern eyes, 
through their modern views of what education should and 
shouldn't be. There seems to be an attitude that just because 
something is new and modern in education, that it's 
necessarily better or right. That's not really true though. Some new 
ideas are good ones. Some are bad ones. Some are 
merely different, neither good or bad.

There's a place for traditional education, though - frankly I think 
there's a reason why many of the 'best schools' are 
ones that resist change to an extent and try and hang on to their old 
traditions. Of course, there are also very good 
modern schools, and very bad old schools - it's not a simple thing to 
know. I can say that I am *incredibly* grateful that 
the last few years of my schooling were spent in traditional 
environments, and I was harmed very badly by some of the 
modern ideas I encountered before that (not that I think all modern 
ideas are bad - but these ones were, for me at least).

Educational theory is a complicated area - and a great deal of what 
becomes accepted in it becomes accepted not for good 
pedagogical reasons, but because it fits into a particular socio-
political agenda. 

People seem to think the Wizarding World should share our views on so 
many things, including education, it seems. It's cultural imperialism 
- no wonder the Wizarding World doesn't want contact with the Muggle 
World. We'd all swan in and tell them exactly what was wrong with the 
way they do things, and how our ideas are so much better. (-8

Incidentally - for this final year of my education course, I have to 
write what is basically a thesis. I have lots of ideas competing as 
possible topics - but one I am seriously considering is a possible, 
proper scholarly analysis of the pedagogy of Hogwarts and what is 
good and bad about it. Whether I can sell my tutors on that would be 
another question - but I think it could be very interesting.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia