Snape! Snape! Snape! Snape! Loverly Snape! Wonderful Snape! (long)

[quick_silver71]

No: HPFGUIDX 148206

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" <zgirnius at ...> 
wrote:
<snip>
> zgirnius:
> Well, we don't KNOW precisely what she meant anyway, the word she 
chose 
> was not one with a single, narrow definition which all agree on. 
So we 
> can't simply accept she meant what she said, we need first to 
decide 
> what it WAS that she said. And the logical way to do that is to 
> consider what it is reasonable for her to have meant, given who 
she is 
> talking about (by looking at the character's actions as she has 
> described them in the book).
> 
> From Dictionary.com...(two other dictionaries I checked give very 
much 
> the same three meanings for this word).
> 
> sa•dism    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sdzm, sdz-)
> n. 
> 1. The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive 
> sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on 
others. 
> 2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, 
from 
> cruelty. 
> 3. Extreme cruelty. 
> 
> I think definition 1. here is NOT what she meant, and I venture to 
> guess that you would agree. She has certainly not given us 
depictions 
> of his actions which would support that interpretation of her 
words.
> 
> Is it then definition 2.? Because I do not see much evidence for 
this, 
> either. (Perhaps you do...certainly, I know others who have 
> participated in this discussion recently do think this was the 
motive 
> for the Trevor incident, the nasty comment about Neville to Lupin, 
his 
> conversation with Harry about the Map, his horned toead detention, 
and 
> possibly other acts I am forgetting). I tend to agree with those 
> posters who have explained their ideas about Snape's motives for 
these 
> various acts, and it was not because he enjoyed these actions.
> 
> Or, finally, is it 3.? I am personally figuring she meant 3. But 
3. is 
> the least informative definition of the word. "Snape is an 
extremely 
> cruel teacher". OK, fine, I agree. He is in fact, wihtout any 
doubt in 
> my mind, the most cruel teacher at Hogwarts, in the first, second, 
> third, and sixth years of the series. What does this tell me that 
I did 
> not already know?
>

Just giving my opinion on Snape and sadism here.

I wonder if calling Snape a sadist is overreaching but also true if 
that makes any sense. I don't think that Snape is a sadist with most 
people but the devil is in the details and the words "most people" 
are important.

My idea is that in calling Snape a sadist an important connection 
should be made...to the Marauders (IMO Snape is closely tied with 
them). We have almost the same problem explaining the Marauders 
actions during SWM and the Prank (and other unheard of incidents no 
doubt)...how could people that seem to be well-liked and remembered 
have done something(s) so terrible? I believe that Lupin says that 
Snape was a "special case" (or was it Sirius?). IMO the same rule 
should really apply to Snape and sadism...Harry, Neville, maybe a 
few other students are Snape's "special cases" that he likes to see 
suffer.

An example of this would be the when Ron and Harry arrive at school 
during CoS...Snape is described as "looking like Christmas had 
arrived early" (I'm going by memory here)...now Snape knows 
Dumbledore isn't going to kick Harry out so the only thing that can 
be making him so happy is the thought of Harry thinking he's going 
to be kicked. Another scene is during GoF when Harry rushes up and 
says Barty Sr. is in the Forest...Snape seems to toy with Harry 
(again I'm going by memory here)...even Harry notes that Snape likes 
to squirm or takes pleasure from denying Harry (is that the 
word...sorry I don't have my book). Another example would be when 
Snape makes Harry walk into the Great Hall without changing into 
robes and without finding out why Harry isn't in robes.

However to a certain extent all the feuds and conflicts that we have 
seen in the books have contained a certain amount of sadism (is it 
possible to have a feud without sadism involved). The difference is 
that Harry/Snape relationship towers over most others and a certain 
amount of that relationship is based on sadism (from both sides 
really) and Snape has been the one with more power (if you will) for 
most of it...so it only makes sense, IMO, to call him sadistic (I 
believe that Harry has stated that Snape likes to see him 
suffer...several times...again off the top of my head).

As for Snape and Neville...way more complex in my opinion. I don't 
think that Snape is really that sadistic to Neville (of course I'm 
less sure on this one).

So I'd vote for 2. "The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to 
derive pleasure, from cruelty" as being a good description of Snape 
when he's being cruel to Harry (or one of Harry's friends in Harry's 
presence). 

Quick_Silver (wishing his books were handy)