Snape! Snape! Snape! Snape! Loverly Snape! Wonderful Snape! (long)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 148230

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at ...> wrote:
>
> ... I've been following this with interest, ..., and I am 
> seriously considering the idea of examining in detail the 
> teaching styles and practices seen at Hogwarts for my final 
> year thesis ..., so I've been doing a lot of thinking about 
> this, and I'd like to salute all those posting in this 
> thread for giving such a wide range of perspectives.
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > You know, it is funny. I was thinking about "Hermione defending 
> > Snape as a teacher' argument in support of "Snape as a good 
> > teacher" and I realized that I don't remember many instances 
> > when she does so. ... Hermione definitely thought that Harry is
> > a good teacher in OOP, but  can we claim that based on one 
> > lesson Hermione considers Snape to be  a good teacher? I don't 
> > think so, personally.
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> I really congratulate you on the effort you've put into this 
> post, and I think you've made a very strong case to counter 
> the claim that Hermione defends Snape as a teacher. 
> Personally, I'm not sure I've ever made that claim myself - 
> although I do think there's a good possibility that Hermione 
> considers Snape to be a good teacher. Mainly because she 
> doesn't criticise him. ...edited...


bboyminn:

Although, my view is somewhat dated, I don't think Britian, or
Hermione, judge teachers in the same way we do here in the USA. In
Britian, knowing your subject is more important than having taken
classes in how to be a teacher. In some ways, the teacher training
requirements are one of the drawbacks to the USA educational system.
It tends to produce a lot of teachers who really don't know much about
anything other than how to speak to groups, how to effectively write
on blackboards, and how to organize lessons and grade books. They are
knowledgable in how to function as a teacher, but don't really have
any indepth knowledge of any particular subject.

Snape is the opposite of that, he knows all his subjects in great
depth and detail, though he may not have the best 'teaching
techniques'. I think Hermione would clearly see Snape's depth of
knowledge and admire him for that. I also think people like Shaun and
other gifted students might view him the same way. They would admirer
Snape because he lectures with great depth and detail, and demands
that you keep up with the flow of knowledge. In a sense, that
demanding nature is the challenge to a gifted student, and in a way,
miserable as the teacher may be, they see a kindred spirit. Finally,
they have come across someone who has the intellect and depth of
knowledge worthy of their own intellect.

As to Snape's and Snape-like teachers teaching technique, I think it
is to 'follow the path of least resistance'. In a sense, slack off or
screw up and I will make your life hell; apply yourself, achieve, and
excel to the best of your abilities and your life will be pleasant.
You choose for yourself which path you want to follow. 

I do see a flaw in this plan though. For most intelligent adults, you
can usually determine what is happening. But it's not so easy for
kids. They lack experience, and from experience comes perspective, and
lacking perspective, they may not understand the circumstance. They
may see it as a personal attack, or a mean teacher being mean for the
sake of being mean, or it may manifest itself in a sense of
unworthiness, or as their own lack of ability. If a harsh demanding
teacher doesn't make the 'path' clear, and take the time to re-enforce
the idea that there really is a easy and rewarding 'path' to follow, a
lot of students can be lost. Still even with that flaw, it is far
better for a teacher to demand that his/her students achieve, than it
is to give them all smiley faces or gold stars and let them get away
with slacking off. 

So, my point is that Hermione would see Snape as a good teacher
because he knows all his subjects to extreme depth and detail, and the
far above average test results of his students would seem to confirm
that. Though, while Hermione would see him as a good and knowledgable
teacher, she would still see him as a mean, nasty, and unfair person.


On the subject of Snape being 'sadistic', I'm afraid I'm going to have
to once again agree with Shaun. People don't talk in pure absolutes.
We all generalize; we make broad sweeping statements that our audience
generally interpret based on the tone and context of the conversation
and (as Shaun pointed out) on our follow up qualifying statements.
When JKR made that statement about Snape being sadistic, I believe she
was just making a general acknowledgement that Snape is a mean and
nasty guy. I don't believe she meant he was literally and absolutely
sadistic. 

On the subject of Neville, I think we have a clear case of a student
and teacher who are ill suited for each other. Snape's teaching
methods tend to push Neville away, whereas, I'm sure the same methods
make many students fiercely determined to achieve, if for no other
reason than spite.

I can understand and sympathize with Neville because at times in my
life I have felt the same strain that I think he is likely under.
Stress, tension, anxiety, and lack of self-confidence aren't just
annoying, they can be disabling. 

When you body becomes tense and anxious, you become physically clumsy.
In a sense, it is like your mind and body are short-circuited.
Movements tend to be quick and jerky. Beyond physically movement, your
brain also become clouded. You are stuggling so hard to maintain
against the onslaught of stress and strain that there is little room
left in your brain for intellectual processes. That makes your mind as
clumsy as your body. 

I really feel sorry for Neville because I know he is going though a
living hell, but you have to give him credit. As miserable as the
stress, strain, tension, and depression are making him, he remains
tenacious. He fights his way through every miserable day and never
complains. He stuggles against overwhelming forces to TRY and achieve,
and in a way, he is successful. No he doesn't have the greatest
grades, but he passes Potions and Transfiguration, not enough to get
into NEWTs, but I'm sure he still got his OWL in those classes.

Further, away from Snape's overbearing glare, Neville seems to be able
to brew potions nicely. By forcing Neville to such a high to
impossible standard in the classroom, the OWL test seem easy by
comparison. I would even go so far as to say that that is Snape's
intent. By demanding that every student achieve to the highest most
demanding standard, even the poorest student is still an adequate
potions makers. Snape doesn't really give a damn if his students like
him, or even if they hate him, as long as when they leave his class,
they can brew potions. That seems to be what Shaun was saying about
his Snape-like teachers; they didn't give a damn what you thought
about them as long as you left knowing the subject.

Well, it's getting late now, and that's about all my brain can handle. 


bboyminn/Steve