Ollivander / Fortescue / Krum's Crucio / Horcrux / Bk7 Opening

[exodusts]

No: HPFGUIDX 148228

> Tonks:
> Having been told of the grave yard events by Harry and about the 
> Priori Incantatem, DD knew that Ollivander would be in serious 
> trouble.  Ollivander did not know about the events, but may have 
> know that Priori Incantatem could happen, or not. It could be just 
> some high ancient magic that only a few wizards like DD knew about. 
> DD went to Ollivander, told him about the situation and helped him 
> go into hiding.  Ollivander doesn't need to appear dead, he just 
> needs to disappear for awhile. Later when LV is vanquished 
> Ollivander can go back to his business.  If it looked like he was 
> dead he would lose the store, to his heirs if he had any or to the 
> state if he didn't.  And there might be things in the store that 
> should not be found. DD is Ollivander's secret keeper.

Exodusts:

The problem with this idea is that it still doesn't resolve the 
principal weakness with the DD-hides-Olivander theory. Here is the 
quote, from the American edition of HBP, that deals with DD's 
proposed methods of hiding:

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right 
side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly 
imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother 
tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had 
died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort 
probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we 
had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do 
themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in 
Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too."

Now that tells us one thing very clearly: DD's method of hiding 
involves faking death. Not just spiriting the person away 
(note "captured AND killed", not "captured OR killed"). If DD had 
hidden Ollivander, he would have left some false evidence of a 
demise. But Ollivander just vanished from his shop one day. If 
Ollivander had worried about losing his title deeds, because people 
thought he was dead, DD could surely have funded a purchase of the 
shop (from the "late" Ollivander's inheritors), to keep it safe 
(Weasley's Wands, anyone?).


> CH3ed:
> I like Tonks' theory (read upthread). I would add that perhaps
> Ollivander disappeared after OotP instead of after GoF because he
> didn't learn of what transpired in the graveyard scene (priori
> incantatem between Harry and LV) until he read Harry's interview in
> the Quibbler.

Exodusts:

Could be, but there is a substantial time gap between the publication 
of that article and the disappearance of Ollivander.


> CH3ed:
> There was no point of faking death by Ollivander anyway... If the
> DEs had gotten to him there would have been a dark mark hovering
> over his shop (the same reason I don't think Regulus Black faked his
> death... the good guys wouldn't have thought he was killed by LV or
> the DEs had there not been a dark mark over him like in Karkaroff's
> case). And if the DEs didn't take him, LV would know it. So I think
> Ollie went into hiding either by himself or with DD's aid.

Exodusts:

I don't follow. Are you saying the good guys can't fake a Dark Mark? 
DD reproaching Slughorn for his failure to fake it (early on in HBP) 
suggests that Slughorn for one, who is not a Death Eater, knows the 
spell. And how do we know that there was no Dark Mark when 
Regulus "died"? Regulus WAS a Death Eater. He could surely have cast 
one if it was needed. You are right to say that LV would find a Death-
Eater-murder odd if he had not ordered anyone to kill Ollivander. But 
DD could have arranged other "deaths". An accidental creature rampage 
out of Knockturn Alley? A wand robbery gone wrong? An Order-
infiltrated magical law enforcement squad turning up on a tip-off, 
and Ollivander being accidentally "killed" in a shoot-out? It is 
clear that DD could have come up with some kind of fake death if 
needed. The fact that he didn't suggests that Ollivander is not under 
his protection, but is out on his own somewhere.


> Doddie:
> I think a huge clue as to what really happened to Olivander is the
> disappearance of Florean Fortescue.  I think Olivander went into
> hiding.(perhaps he has that "Ravenclaw Horcrux" with him...that wand
> in his shop window in SS/PS)  I think when Voldemort realized
> Olivander was gone, Voldemort sent the DE's to kidnap Fortescue and
> torture him for information--alas poor Fortescue.

Exodusts:

It's possible, but why would Fortescue know more than anyone 
else? Just because they shared nearby shop premises? I prefer the 
Fortescue-Portrait connection. Voldemort has been in DD's office - 
see HBP - and later realised that the ice cream seller in Diagon 
Alley was the descendant of the portly wizard in the portrait above 
DD's desk. Consequently, he captured Florian and got word to the 
portrait, via other portraits in Florian's house, that unless it 
starts passing information on what goes on in DD's office, the 
relative will suffer gruesome torments.


> Lou:
> Harry performs a Crucio on Bellatrix at the end of OOTP without - as
> far as I am aware - any practice of this. I do hope they are not
> torturing little fluffy things, or even scaley ones, at Durmstrang!

Exodusts:

They probably are, unless the Imperius really does illogically enable 
you to do magic you normally can't. When Harry tries the curse in 
OotP:

"Hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before; he flung 
himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed, 'Crucio!'
Bellatrix screamed: the spell had knocked her off her feet, but she 
did not writhe and shriek with pain as Neville had - she was already 
back on her feet, breathless, no longer laughing."

Bellatrix suggests it is only because Harry doesn't mean to harm, but 
I would imagine that the lack of practice wouldn't help his chances 
of achieving the right state of mind and/or just casting it well.

When Krum uses it in GoF, Cedric yells, jerks and twitches, and this 
continues for the whole length of time it takes Harry to reach them 
through the hedge. It only stops when Harry intervenes. Does a 
neophyte Krum just get lucky because he really, really wants to 
inflict pain on Cedric? Why? He's only doing it under magically 
compelled orders.

Remember Fake!Moody demonstrating on spiders in GoF. He admits he 
isn't supposed to do it, but there isn't an investigation or any 
comeback for him. And that is at Hogwarts. I can easily imagine a 
more relaxed regime, that Durmstrang's Karkaroff operated under, 
allowing older students to "experience" Crucio-ing insects or 
arachnids (incidentally , I wonder if, in Real Life, they even have 
sufficient nervous system to be suitable for this)?


> CV: 
> The Gryffindor horcrux. What could it be? JKR has said it is not the
> hat. It could be the sword. It could be something we haven't seen
> yet. But here is my guess - I think it is Godric's Hollow itself. I
> think Voldy intended to build a horcrux into the Godric's ancestral
> house and intended to populate it with Harry's death. I think he got
> through the preparations and then got, um, interrupted, resulting in
>the destruction of the broken horcrux.

Exodusts:

My guess: LV intended to make the Sword into a Horcrux with Harry's 
death. The Sword was hidden in Godric's Tomb, somewhere in a barrow 
in or under Godric's Hollow, in good Arthurian fashion. LV failed, so 
the Sword remained where it was until Harry pulled it through space 
out of the Sorting Hat. (Unless there is any mention of that Sword 
having been in Hogwarts before the events in CoS?). Harry in book 7 
may discover that the secret of Godric's Hollow is that it is 
Godric's resting place (if Harry's parents turn out to have graves, I 
would guess that the secret entrance to the Tomb will be near to 
them, in the graveyard). He will go down into it with R and H, have a 
quick Adventure and find that the Tomb has a big Sword-shaped space 
on top of it. He will figure out that the reason it isn't there is 
because he himself obtained it via the Hat. Hermione will then 
suggest that kids at Hogwarts in other houses might be able to help 
Harry to get the missing Horcruxes through the Hat. Cue Zacharias 
Smith. PS Harry will find a bouquet / some kind of strange and 
recently-placed anonymous gift or dedication on Lily's grave. This 
will be the First Clue regarding Snape-loves-Lily, although Harry 
won't realise that at the time.


> CV:
> If Voldy was going to make his 6th and final horcrux with the
> killing of Harry, and that failed, then there should be two Voldy
> bits floating around, no? The bit that didn't become the horcrux and
> the one he intended to keep in his body. I'm thinking that now that
> he is corporeal again, he could have made horcruxes to replace the
> lost ones, if he knows they are lost. But in his first pass, I'm
> thinking there must have been one less horcrux than Dumbledore
> thinks. Does anyone agree?

Exodusts:
Not if the spare bit went into Harry OR if the split never occurred 
because Harry didn't die.


> bboyminn:
> Fandom is speculating or assuming two things relative to Harry's 
> stay at the Durselys. First that Ron and Hermione will be there 
> with him, and second that their will be an attack on Privet Drive. 
> For this to work, I submit the following speculation.
>
> First, Harry, Ron, and Hermione will spend two weeks at the Dursley
> and hilarity will ensue. Then they will go to Bill's wedding. Then
> they will be off to Godrics Hollow. Then back to the Dursley where
> Harry prepares to leave them forever. Immediately after Harry's 17th
> Birthday, the DEs will attack and the Trio will be forced to defend
> the Dursleys.
>
> Now that the Dursley's have been attacked, Harry will have to take
> them in and protect them. So, instead of Harry living with the
> Dursley's, the Dursley's will be living with Harry. I call that
> Karmic justice and great wonderful irony. I suspect, Harry will
> quarter the Dursleys at the Black House, since it is about the only 
> place that Harry can go and still be independant.
>
> From there, the story will move on to the Horcrux Hunt and Harry
> preparing himself for the last battle.

Exodusts:

It's not clear from HRH's conversation at the end of HBP exactly what 
order things are going to happen in. HRH could end up going to the 
Dursleys, then to the Wedding, or vice versa (Ron says: "But, mate, 
you're going to have to come round my mum and dad's house before we 
do ANYTHING else", but then adds: "even Godric's Hollow", which Harry 
had talked about going to AFTER the Dursleys). Try this for an 
opening -

HRH go to The Burrow 1st. This enables LV to launch a mass attack, 
attempting to kill Harry now that DD is dead. This is the perfect 
time for such an event, plot-wise, because Harry would be too safe at 
the Dursleys with their protection, but not safe enough at the Burrow 
UNLESS there were enough wedding guests to tragically sacrifice 
themselves in the battle, driving the Dementors et al away.

Naturally, Harry is packed off straight back home after the wedding, 
for his own (and everyone else's) good. Ron and Hermione go with him. 
He gets to Privet Drive and finds Dudley alone, terrified. Dudley 
tells Harry that Vernon & Petunia went to London, to check out the 
value of 12 GOP (remember that DD told them about it, and that the 
enchantments on the property may now be gone). LV had set a watch on 
the Dursleys to watch for Harry or follow their movements and/or 
Snape has told LV the location of 12 GOP now that DD is dead - Snape 
has to, because if LV finds out DD was the secret-keeper, and Snape 
hadn't revealed the location after DD's death, it would look mighty 
suspicious. Anyway, HRH end up having to go to 12 GOP with or without 
a sad, repentant Dudley, and rescue V & P from a Death Eater ambush 
at 12 GOP. Snape might even be among the captors, giving he and Harry 
another opportunity to reacquaint themselves before the Death Eaters 
flee. V, P and Dudley finally reconcile with Harry, P spills the 
beans about Lily, Dudley reveals what he experiences under Dementor 
influence (JKR has said that is notable), and HRH get to poke about 
12 GOP again to get on track of the locket. Kreacher reveals that it 
has gone from his salvage-pile; next stop Azkaban Mundungus-
rescue attempt.