Snape! Snape! Snape! Snape! Loverly Snape! Wonderful Snape! (long)

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 148231

bboyminn:
> 
> Although, my view is somewhat dated, I don't think Britian, or
> Hermione, judge teachers in the same way we do here in the USA. In
> Britian, knowing your subject is more important than having taken
> classes in how to be a teacher. In some ways, the teacher training
> requirements are one of the drawbacks to the USA educational system.
> It tends to produce a lot of teachers who really don't know much 
about
> anything other than how to speak to groups, how to effectively write
> on blackboards, and how to organize lessons and grade books. They 
are
> knowledgable in how to function as a teacher, but don't really have
> any indepth knowledge of any particular subject.

Ceridwen:
I'd like to add my own $0.02 here.  I just went back to school after 
a hiatus of 33 years.  I take two courses on campus, and three over 
the internet.  Which explains why I don't say much here any more.  
The younger students in my classes are amazing.  I mean that in a bad 
sense.  They want to be coddled and excused.  One leaves class for a 
smoke break less than an hour through class time.  Several don't like 
the math teacher because she 'dresses funny'.  Of the two teachers I 
actually see, the English teacher is the most Snape-like.  The math 
teacher is more of a McGonagall.

bboyminn: 
> Snape is the opposite of that, he knows all his subjects in great
> depth and detail, though he may not have the best 'teaching
> techniques'. I think Hermione would clearly see Snape's depth of
> knowledge and admire him for that. I also think people like Shaun 
and
> other gifted students might view him the same way. 

Ceridwen:
So would other students who actually want to learn instead of just 
take up space in the classroom.  The subjects I'm taking are required 
for the degree, though not part of the degree.  I'm going for an 
Associate in Arts, so Math and Astronomy are superfluous to what I 
actually need.  I'm no genius in math, but I get peeved off at the 
students who viciously backbite the math teacher for her methods 
(which work just fine for me, and for them, too, judging by the 
recent test) based on her sense of fashion.  If words were weapons, 
these kids would cause multiple bloodbaths.

bboyminn:
*(snip)*
> As to Snape's and Snape-like teachers teaching technique, I think it
> is to 'follow the path of least resistance'. In a sense, slack off 
or
> screw up and I will make your life hell; apply yourself, achieve, 
and
> excel to the best of your abilities and your life will be pleasant.
> You choose for yourself which path you want to follow.

Ceridwen:
Which brings us to English.  The first day, the teacher talked about 
seatbelt wearing.  One student admitted that he doesn't wear his.  
She jumped all over him.  It was like focusing a burn-light from a 
magnifying glass straight on his nose.  He wouldn't defend his 
position, and he wouldn't cave and say she was right.  As Steve says 
below, these kids don't have the life experience to see what's going 
on.  Even a 50 year old doesn't necessarily know the root reason at 
the time, going by myself as an example.  I thought she was 
incredibly mean.

But the entire point of the class is effective writing.  Why do we 
hold a particular opinion?  The Seatbeltless One had his reason for 
not wearing his seatbelt in his truck, which as far as I can see, is 
the only place he doesn't wear it.  But he wouldn't, or couldn't, 
defend his reason no matter what 'abuse' the teacher dished out.  
We're supposed to be learning how to adequately present an idea.  She 
wanted a debate, he wouldn't oblige.

And, for not calling on Hermiones, guess whose hand is usually up?  
Guess who doesn't get called on?  I suppose the fact that I actually 
read the selections and do the homework has something to do with my 
Hermionesque behavior.  But it's frustrating to sit in class with 
everyone else reading what I read days ago, and furiously scratching 
out answers that I've already typed and printed.  The English teacher 
doesn't just ignore me all the time, she'll sometimes give a wink and 
motion for me to put my hand down.  I get it, she wants the others to 
answer, too.

bboyminn:
> On the subject of Snape being 'sadistic', I'm afraid I'm going to 
have
> to once again agree with Shaun. People don't talk in pure absolutes.
> We all generalize; we make broad sweeping statements that our 
audience
> generally interpret based on the tone and context of the 
conversation
> and (as Shaun pointed out) on our follow up qualifying statements.

Ceridwen:
I'll add my vote to this.  JKR handles on-her-feet interviews better 
than I ever could.  But she won't necessarily be precise on the fly.  
She knows the general use of the term 'sadistic', so she uses it.  
Then she qualifies, sets up her argument.  'Snape is sadistic' is 
reinforced by 'abuses authority' and 'mean'.  It's a 'because clause' 
without the because.  'Snape is sadistic' (because) 'he abuses his 
authority; he is mean'.  Maybe I'm reading too much into this since 
we're studying this in English (or, we're supposed to be, if the rest 
of the class will ever do the readings!).

bboyminn:
> On the subject of Neville, I think we have a clear case of a student
> and teacher who are ill suited for each other. Snape's teaching
> methods tend to push Neville away, whereas, I'm sure the same 
methods
> make many students fiercely determined to achieve, if for no other
> reason than spite.

Ceridwen:
I've seen this in English.  Seatbeltless One hates the teacher, and 
has a poor attitude for the class.  He has admitted that he is only 
taking the class because it is required.  He sees no use for it 
otherwise, any more than I see the need for me to learn Algebra or 
How To Use MSWord (Computer class).  S.O. doesn't have the life 
experience I do.  So we'll demonstrate our feelings in different 
ways.  I would love to see the spiteful student in English, because 
that would mean someone doing their work.  But, no.  *sigh*  I'm sure 
the students see the teacher as mean.  I don't.  But I have a very 
different background than they do.

bboyminn:
> When you body becomes tense and anxious, you become physically 
clumsy.
> In a sense, it is like your mind and body are short-circuited.
> Movements tend to be quick and jerky. Beyond physically movement, 
your
> brain also become clouded. You are stuggling so hard to maintain
> against the onslaught of stress and strain that there is little room
> left in your brain for intellectual processes. That makes your mind 
as
> clumsy as your body. 

Ceridwen:
I love you.  You've just explained my score on my math test.  *g*  
But, this is very true.  Neville doesn't do well in Potions because 
he's nervous anyway.  His entire life he's been identified as nearly 
a squib.  His grandmother is overbearing.  Now here's another WW soul 
who is just as overbearing, and this person has a direct effect on 
Neville's future.  Neville doesn't think he's good enough, so he 
messes up under scrutiny.  He's good at Herbology, but that isn't 
like Potions.  Will he ever need Potions for his life goal?  Or would 
it just be easier to give up and pretend to be a Squib?

bboyminn:
> Further, away from Snape's overbearing glare, Neville seems to be 
able
> to brew potions nicely. By forcing Neville to such a high to
> impossible standard in the classroom, the OWL test seem easy by
> comparison. I would even go so far as to say that that is Snape's
> intent. By demanding that every student achieve to the highest most
> demanding standard, even the poorest student is still an adequate
> potions makers. Snape doesn't really give a damn if his students 
like
> him, or even if they hate him, as long as when they leave his class,
> they can brew potions. That seems to be what Shaun was saying about
> his Snape-like teachers; they didn't give a damn what you thought
> about them as long as you left knowing the subject.

Ceridwen:
Neville is more capable as the books progress.  Maybe he's finally 
getting a sense of self after being overshadowed by the impossible 
standards set down by his grandmother, which is the example of his 
parents.  What kid wants to end up in the mental ward?  Isn't that 
what his grandmother is asking?  And by extension, isn't that what 
Snape, McGonagall, and the other teachers are asking of him?  
Aurors?  Didn't they have to do well in Potions, then?

And, Snape is fearsome.  I wouldn't like my English teacher targeting 
me.  Even in a good way, which she has done.  Single out a student, 
set them up, as an example of good, or bad.  But the people this last 
paragraph remind me of the most are my former drill sergeants.  
Snape's got nothing on them for mean.  Sarcastic, biting, petty, 
nitpicking, their goal is to break down the civilian and raise up a 
soldier.  That is the intention.  And 'nice' doesn't cut it.  No 
cuddly 'I understand', except possibly in counselling, and we don't 
see Snape counselling anyone but Draco, and that's six books forward, 
in HBP.  Once.  A student we're led to believe he favors.

Neville, Harry, and the other students haven't got the experience 
behind them to see through the head games.  I joined the army when I 
was 32, so I had both a stronger sense of self, and an idea of what 
was actually going on.  I'm back in school at 50, and I can handle a 
lot of things the younger students think are just horrific (like  
bright orange socks).  Without life experience, kids will be overly 
critical.  And they'll be worried about their *selves*, to an extent 
that an older person won't.  Neville's worried, and maybe even 
hopeful in a way, that he'll actually turn out to be magically 
impotent and no good to anyone...

Until OotP, when he suddenly realizes there's a fire lit under him.  
I think that was the turning point for Neville.  But he had a solid 
foundation of being pushed aside roughly so he could handle some of 
the nastiness of Bellatrix and the other DEs.  I'm very hopeful for 
Neville.  As a student who seemed inept from the beginning, he has a 
steeper slope to climb.  But since that slope is more noticeable, 
he'll probably come to terms with it sooner than Harry, who is 
obviously gifted in ways Neville isn't.  Harry's struggling with some 
things, and he doesn't realize why; Neville knows he's climbing a 
mountain.

My two cents, as much as I can give it, with tests coming up, and 
school on campus later today.  Yuck.

Ceridwen.