Harry Cunning or Manipulative?

[susanbones2003]

No: HPFGUIDX 148482

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "h2so3f" <h2so3f@> wrote:
> >
> > susanbones: 
> > "I realize he had to be less than forthcoming with the Dursleys 
but 
> > the things he did with them, they don't seem to be at the level 
> > he's identifying with LV. He made a bargain with Vernon, that 
he'd 
> > be a good boy if he could have his permission form signed, and 
> > well, that didn't even work out."
> 
>  
> 
> Geoff:
> First, if I might comment on some of the examples given above 
which I 
> do not read in quite the same way...SNIP

> 
>SNIP
> 
> Again, keeping his name from Stan Shunpike was to keep himself out 
of 
> more trouble. Remember, he is running scared at this point in time.
> 
> I do not believe that the sort of behaviour I have mentioned 
counts 
> as cunning or manipulative in my eyes...
> 
> My dictionary presents cunning as being "skilled in achieving 
one's 
> ends by deceit or evasion". Manipulate is to "handle or control 
with 
> dexterity" and manipulative is "tending to manipulate other people 
> cleverly or unscrupulously".
> 
> If he has learned anything at Privet Drive, it is not to do the 
above 
> but to keep a low profile, not to ask questions and not to do 
> anything which might provoke Vernon (in particular) to take it out 
on 
> him either verbally or physically. He seeks a quiet life free of 
the 
> discrimination, unfairness and cruelty which he has been receiving 
as 
> long as he can rememeber.
> 
> In this context Harry is not cunning or manipulative, he is quite 
> justifiably exercising survival skills which is a very different 
> kettle of fish.


Geoff,
I am not sure if you have been following this thread but it might be 
worth a look up thread for you. It comes down to this. I have been 
arguing that in Book 6, especially after seeing the Slughorn memory, 
that Harry has a moment where he identifies with LV, and it's 
uncomfortably close to admiration for his skills at wheedling 
information out of Slughorn and that this admiration of LV is very 
uncomfortable for me. I argued that Harry may have done things that 
weren't always honest in previous books and situations but I never 
understood him to be "aware" that he was wheedling and manipulating. 
This brought forth a veritable plethora of posts detailing all the 
many and various times Harry has acted with something less than 
honesty. What I can not seem to communicate properly to people (and 
I promise to give up after this post! Really!) is that in all those 
situations Harry had never consciously (according to my reading 
anyway) been trying to manipulate or connive and that things he did 
were of a survival nature, not anything like the cunning and 
trickery that LV was already adept at even as a young man. But and 
here's my point, it really bothers me that Harry wasn't repelled by 
LV's skills with Slughorn. He seemed to be recognizing a  master at 
work. And so I wondered (fruitlessly, I admit) if in the future 
Harry would not have to face demons of his own concerning the end 
and the means to an end. I realize that LV must be defeated but I 
hadn't counted on any situation in which Harry might have to do 
something unsavory (killing aside) to accomplish this task. I 
worried that he might damage his own pure and untarnished soul. 
Everytime I say this, Geoff, I get posts detailing all 
the "conscious" times Harry has sidestepped ethical behaviour and 
it's supposed to buoy some argument that the Harry admiring LV isn't 
a new thing. And so there you have it. 
Jen D. (on to other things, really, I promise).