Harry Cunning or Manipulative?

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 148551

Jen here:
> But Ceridwen, as far as I can recall, Harry learnt everything he 
> learned about his parents either accidentally or in a very 
> forthcoming manner. Lupin told him a few things, Sirius a few 
> things. Okay, I forgot the pensieve. He regularly fell into that 
> thing. But no wheedling or even inquiry involved. Just do something 
> that would probably in DD's case not be so bad and then, of course, 
> totally violate Snape's privacy, but never with the malice 
> aforethought I attach to wheedling. I like your idea that he's been 
> a failure at wheedling but I don't see any attempts even. He seems 
> remarkably able to let information come to him. Hagrid told him a 
> bit. Slughorn told him a bit. The Dementors did their part. As did 
> Lupin and Sirius. And Snape added a huge chunk of less-than-savory 
> info. There's Mad-eye's narration of the last photograph. Madame 
> Rosmerta and the group at the Three Broomsticks. I'm running out of 
> sources. Oh yes, DD of course. Harry's certain disregard for the 
> rules is there. I admit that but I just don't see any attempts to 
> obtain information in a clandestine manner. It feels a little like 
> JKR wants to introduce a side of Harry that can appreciate young 
> Tom's gifts and perhaps even emmulate him (and we know he can, but 
> needed his friend Felix for the final push). Harry's growing up and 
> I am willing to bet she needs this side of him for the next book. I 
> just don't see enough preparation and I guess this doesn't make for 
> much of a post but there you have it.

Ceridwen:
I wasn't suggesting that Harry was trying to be sneaky and 
underhanded in his information gathering.  He asks outright, as a 
Gryffindor would.  But his efforts have been less than satisfying.  
He eats up all the information you mentioned he received, from all 
the people who knew his parents.  But Dumbledore won't tell him why 
he trusts Snape, and Dumbledore won't tell him what happened to his 
hand, just for the two instances which immediately sprang to mind.  
Harry isn't smooth, or slick, or professionally wheedling.  
Dumbledore puts him off every time.

Then, there's Tom, sidling up to Slughorn with the heavy polish, 
knowing his quarry, making just the right noises and moves, and 
getting his information.  And here's Harry, still asking the same 
questions year after year with no results.  Later on, IIRC, he even 
gets a mild rebuff from Dumbledore about the Snape question.

I think Harry will need to get rid of the Gryffindor urge to be 
forthright, even if it isn't in the best interest of his mission, and 
that's where the admiration, the 'Golly-gee!' comes in.  And maybe, 
that's where friend Felix comes in, too.  Maybe Harry learned enough 
from that episode to open up those particular avenues in his 
personality?  He did it, he felt how it's supposed to feel, now all 
he has to do is practice the subtleties of not too much, not too 
little, and practice as well forcing down any bile he may bring up 
concering anything less than direct confrontation.

Could his breaking up with Ginny be a first step down that road?  
Would you have used it to break it off with a boyfriend?  Would that 
boyfriend have accepted such an argument when you then turned around 
and grabbed his sister and another friend to accompany you on your 
task?  I don't have the book handy right now, but was there some 
budding soft-soap involved?

Did Dumbledore want him to practice on him, for those other pieces of 
information he wanted?

You know, talking about Harry wanting information about his parents 
brings up the lies the Dursleys told him about them.  I still don't 
like the way they tried to make his parents sound so uncaring!

> Jen D, wondering if that gently simmering polyjuice potion works 
> with vela hair....

Just be careful not to accidentally get a Malfoy hair instead, or the 
Aurors will be on you like fur on a kitten!

Ceridwen.