Secret Keepers/JKR Poll Question - Confussion

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 148595

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat4001" <zarleycat at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> 
> ...edited...
> > 
> > To be clear, let us look at Dumbledore's revelation of the 
> > secret to Harry -
> > 
> > "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at
> > number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London." - by note in OotP 
> > pg 58
> > 
> > It seems that the location of 12 Grimmauld Place is not itself
> > a secret, ..., only that it is the headquarters for the Order.
> > So, how does that translate into ways in which the Black House 
> > could be revealed? ...
> > 
> > Also, 12 Grimmauld Place is NOT NOW the location of Head-
> > quarters, does that nullify the secret since the secret 
> > specifically involves 'Headquarters'? ...Does the 'secret' 
> > automatically follow the 'headquarters'? ...
> > 
> > I think JKR thought she was clearing up this problem for us,
> > but instead she has only made it more complicated. ... Very 
> > confusing.
> 
> Marianne:
> 
> Thanks, Steve, for making my head spin. 

bboyminn:

Well, hold on to your spinning head because here we go again.

> Marianne:
>
> I wonder if, even though  Harry mentioned the 'secret' that if
> the Dursleys were to go looking for 12 GP they still wouldn't 
> be able to find it because they were told the secret by someone
> who is not the Secret Keeper. IOW, does it matter if Harry 
> shouted the location of headquarters from the rooftops of London,
> if the secret itself is still locked inside DD?
> 

bboyminn:

That's just it, ONLY the Secret Keeper can reveal the location. JKR
said, if James, as the subject of the secret, were captured, he would
have been unable to reveal the location of Lily and Harry. He is not
the Secret Keeper, so he can not speak the secret. I have to assume
the same holds true for Harry.

Just to confuse things, let's go back to Moody handing Harry the note
from Dumbledore which reveals the location of the Headquarters. How is
that possible? Moody is not the Secret Keeper, yet it is Moody who
reveals the secret to Harry. True he revealed it via a note from
Dumbledore, but it is Moody who is revealing the note and the note
contains the secret, and supposedly, only the Secret Keeper can reveal
that information to anyone. It's a quandary wrapped in a dilemma.

Can we assume that the note was enchanted so it could only be read by
Harry? Can we assume the Moody himself could not read the note even
though he was in on the secret? Perhaps Moody was not aware of what
the note said. Perhaps Dumbledore sealed the note, and told Moody to
defend it with his life, and give it to no one but Harry then burn it
immediately afterwards.

I think the key to Harry revealing the secret is that it is no longer
a secret. YES...the location of the Headquarters for the Order of the
Phoenix is still a secret, but 'headquarters' is no longer Grimmald
Place. That's the point I was trying to make near the end. When
'headquarters' moved to a new location, the 'secret' automatically
moved along with it. It was never the location of 12 Grimmauld Place
that was protected, it was the locatio of 'headquarters'. Prior to
OotP, they were one and the same and simultanioulsy protected. Now
that they are separate locations, 'headquartes' is protected as the
'secret', but 12 Grimmauld Place is not.

Yes, indeed...very confusing. I don't think JKR analysed the situation
to the level and in the detail that we are. As long as the story
flowed nicely and made reasonable sense in the moment; that was good
enough. Now after the fact, I suspect she is able to invent
explanations to cover her tracks, which is essentiall what I am doing.


> One worry about 12 GP was whether there was some sort of charm on 
> the house that would only allow it to be willed to someone with 
> Black blood.  Since JKR made it clear that Sirius could will it to 
> anyone he chose, this turned out not to be an issue.  But, DD was 
> clearly concerned that Bellatrix might inherit the house, which was 
> the reason the Order temporarily vacated the premises.  How would 
> that have squared with the Secret Keeper charm had Sirius not been 
> able to will the house to Harry?  In other words, can inheritance 
> trump the Secret Keeper charm?
> 
>  
> 
> > 
> > > Christina continues:
> > >
> > > ..., did the charm on the Potters break when *they* died...
> > > (
> > >
> > 
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > ...Keep in mind that we don't actually know what the secret 
> > was related to the Potters hiding. Was their house the secret,
> > or were they the secret? And as you ask, when the Potters - 
> > the Secret - died, was the house revealed since there no longer
> >  was a secret to keep? ...
> 
> Marianne:
> 
> I think that perhaps this part is getting needlessly complicated.  
> If Peter, the Secret Keeper revealed the secret to Vmort, then the 
> secret is essentially over. There was no more secret. ...
> 
> Marianne
>

bboyminn:

That is also a popular misconception. Dumbledore has revealed the
'secret' to dozens of people; The Order, Harry, Ron, Hermione, the
Twins, possibly even Percy. So, the 'secret' can't be broken by
revealing it. 

I suspect, and only suspect, that Harry was able to reveal the secret
because 'headquaters' was in a new location, a location that was still
secret and covered by the Secret Keeper Charm. In a sense, when 12
Grimmauld Place and the 'secret' disassociated themselves, 12
Grimmauld Place was no longer hidden. 

When Lily and James died, we have a similar disassociation. With their
death their is no longer a secret that needs keeping. Sounds good,
just one problem, Harry was still alive, and if we assume that the
secret involves all three of them as JKR implies, then the secret
continued. Perhaps like Grimmauld Place, the 'secret' moves with the
subjects. In other words, the secret was the location of the Potters.
When the Potters moved, the secret moved with them. Just as the
'headquarters' secret has moved from Grimmauld Place to it's new
location. 

Now, I have to conclude that there is a way in which the 'secret' can
be removed; that is, the Secret Keeper Charm can be canceled. Though
that seems a huge flaw in the protection. If the secret was the
location of the Potters where ever they may be, then Harry should
still be protected. Since Harry is at Privet Drive, then Number Four
should be a secret. The milkman and the postman should not be able to
find it. But they can, so obviously there is a flaw in my thinking.

Perhaps, only James and Lily were covered by the Secret Keeper Charm
and Harry was carried along under the umbrella but not specifically
mentioned. Then when Lily and James died, there was no secret to keep,
and Hagrid was able to find Harry in the rubble of the house, and the
postman is now able to find #4 Privet Drive. 

Still very confusing. Like I said, JKR has created far more problems
that she has solved.

Steve/bboyminn