Is Snape good or evil? (long)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 148680

> Dung:
<SNIP>
> If he'd refused clause 3, the game would have been up, wouldn't 
it? 
> Bella would have been *certain* that Snape had been stringing 
Voldy 
> along, and she'd have run straight back to Voldy to tell him. That 
> would pretty much mean death for Snape if he ever set foot outside 
> Hogwarts again, not to mention the loss of Dumbledore's best 
source 
> of information. What kind of plausible excuse could he have given 
> Bella for refusing clause 3? He's already admitted to both of them 
> that he thinks this is what Voldemort wants in the end, anyway. 

Alla:

I will mercilessly snip some parts of your lovely post, because some 
points which I absolutely do not see playing out, I cannot even 
rebut, because I cannot imagine them in my head even for the sake of 
the argument. Sorry!

SURE, if Snape had refused only clause 3 the game would be up, no 
question about it. What I am NOT sure about is whether the game 
would be up if Snape refused to take UV at all. But again this is 
goes from different assumptions we have. I am NOT as sure as you are 
that the meeting was instigated by Voldemort, I can totally see 
Narcissa going to Snape of her own initiative and Bella tagging 
along maybe hoping to give Voldemort useful spying info, BUT I see 
no definite evidence that Voldemort was behind arranging the meeting 
in the first place, from very beginning. 

 
> Dungrollin:
> You're right, Snape has never admitted that he's wrong, ever. Not 
on-
> page. Although... he didn't hex Sirius and pack him off to the 
> Aurors in OotP, so I reckon he must have accepted that Sirius 
> *wasn't* the one who betrayed the Potters' Fidelius Charm. 
Accepting 
> isn't the same as a public admission, of course, but it's evidence 
> that at least once in the past he was wrong, and he didn't 
> stubbornly insist that he was right and carry on regardless. 

Alla:

But Snape was not in any position to do that to Sirius. I am 
guessing that if he values his position and Dumbledore's protection, 
he was doing what is best for him, namely don't touch the man whom 
Dumbledore openly acknowledged as his ally. I don't think it equals 
in any way shape or form Snape acknowledging he was wrong in PoA. 
But that is JMO of course. 


Dungrollin:
So no, 
> we've never seen him admit he was wrong on-page, but if DD was 
> telling the truth that Snape told him he was remorseful (about ... 
> something), then it's a fair bet that he admitted he'd been wrong 
> about something then.
> 
> I don't think that Snape not admitting he's wrong to, or in front 
of 
> *Harry* (and thus to the reader) means he wouldn't admit it to 
> someone else – someone who wouldn't take quite so much delight in 
> the spectacle, for example, like Dumbledore.

Alla:

Yes, I suppose that is one of those different assumptions again. I 
said many times that I want Snape to say that he was wrong himself. 
But say he was indeed remorseful in the past, where do we see him 
acknowledging that he was wrong within the time line of the story, 
on the page?

I mean, besides Snape as you said not giving Sirius to aurors in 
OOP, because I am very honestly puzzled how Snape could pull this 
one off without Dumbledore doing many bad things to him.

Dungrollin:
<SNIP>
>> By all means criticize Snape's choices, but please explain what 
> better course of action he could have taken and how he could have 
> known that it was a more sensible choice *at the time* – i.e a 
> better course of action that does *not* rely on 20/20 hindsight. 

Alla:

Absolutely, as I said above, he should not have taken UV AT ALL, IMO 
of course. He should have told Narcissa that she is NOT supposed to 
divulge Dark Lord confidence and threw them both out and Bella could 
have been even happy with it, IMO. But again, I am not sure that 
meeting was instigated by Voldy.

> Dung:
<HUGE SNIP>
> So, to answer your point above:
> If Snape hadn't told DD about clause 3 (for some reason I keep 
> typing '4' by accident), I completely see where you're coming 
from, 
> and it's possible, yep (I don't like it, but hey). In that case 
> Snape is duplicitous and Slytherinish and a complete bastard and 
> deserves no mercy. Sure. But like you said, we have no evidence 
> either way.
> 
> Just (try to) imagine that he *did*, imagine that immediately 
after 
> Bella and Cissy leave, Snape goes straight to Hogwarts, up to 
> Dumbledore's office, walks in and says "He's caught me out at 
last. 
> I'm going to die."
> <snip>
> Everything above is basically a long preamble (which I probably 
> should have bothered to write out in the last post rather than 
> trying to be concise) to the question:
> What choice could Dumbledore make in this situation that would 
> satisfy the moralists?

Alla:

Right, I snipped a huge part of your preamble here, but my objection 
still stands the same. Yes, if Snape confessed to DD the third 
clause right away, I can see your scenario. My only problem is I 
don't. I see Snape as incredibly arrogant person, I am always right 
sort of character and if I am wrong, I will deal with it by myself. 
I also(Nora said it so much better) don't quite buy Snape as DD 
right hand man argument. I am preparing my crow as always for the 
time of book 7 arrival. :)

Dung:
> Everything above is basically a long preamble (which I probably 
> should have bothered to write out in the last post rather than 
> trying to be concise) to the question:
> What choice could Dumbledore make in this situation that would 
> satisfy the moralists?

Alla:

If the situation played out as you described ( which again I am not 
so sure it did), sure Dumbledore is in a difficult situation here. 


Dung:
> Do you really think that if the above were the case, Dumbledore 
> would say "Sorry, Severus old chum, but you're not going to make 
it 
> through this one. I'm much more important than you are for the war 
> effort, you know. If you hadn't taken the vow, we could have done 
> *something*, but since the vow was *your* mistake, *you're* the 
one 
> who's going to have to pay the price.

Alla:

I cannot see Dumbledore saying "Gee, Severus, old chump, thank you 
SO much for making my death coming so much faster. Now I have to 
leave sixteen year old boy to complete horcruxes hunt. But by all 
means if push comes to shove, kill me ASAP". Sorry, just don't see 
it.

What would I think Dumbledore could have done if this situation 
played out as you described? Probably suggesting trying to fool the 
UV, since there is no definite time frame in the UV itself.


> Alla:
> Having said all that, I wonder about your take on whether Snape was
> lying or telling the truth in general in Spinner's End. <snip>
 Dungrollin:
> I hope that what I've written above makes it obvious. Snape 
already  
> knew that Voldy wanted him to finish Draco's task when Draco 
failed, 
> and he had already discussed this with DD *before he took the 
vow*. 
> I'm sure their first thought was to try to convince Draco to tell 
> Snape what he was up to (one DE to another) – so Snape had better 
> look after him and watch him closely this year... 
> 
> The DDM!Snape interpretation of all the reasons he gives Bella for 
> his loyalty to Voldemort is pretty standard – he's lying, he's a 
spy.

Alla:

Okay, so basically everything that would point to Snape being DD!M 
was concealed, right? But then again, why are you sure that Snape 
knew about Draco's task? Couldn't that be a lie too to find out 
information for Dumbledore or something?


 
> Alla:
> I mean, I will be VERY happy to learn that everything that Snape
> said in Spinner's End was true, but that would mean that blood of
> Emmeline Vance and Sirius is on his hands.
> 
> Dung:
> Yeah I know you would. I'd feel decidedly short-changed. 

Alla:

We cannot all be happy how the final book play out. :-) But I am 
absolutely preparing myself for the possibility of the worst case 
scenario ( how I see it of course :))in order not to be too 
disappointed at the end. 

> Dung:
> He's pretending to be a *Death Eater* so that he can spy on them, 
> Alla. Do you really think that he's in a position to say "No, I'm 
> sorry Narcissa, I'm not going to help Draco - you know full-well 
> that I'm firmly morally opposed to killing, and this would be 
> *murder*." What plausible excuse could he give for slithering out 
of 
> action *again*? 

Alla:

See above. The very plausible excuse would have been IMO to stop 
Narcissa from divulging Dark Lord's loyalties.

"The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it," Narcissa continued, 
her eyes still closed. "He wishes none to know of the plan. It 
is...very secret. But----"
"If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak," said Snape as 
once. The Dark Lord's word is law."
Narcissa gasped as though he had doused her with cold water. 
Bellatrix looked satisfied for the first time since she had entered 
the house.
"There!" she said triumphantly to her sister. "Even Snape says so: 
You were told not to talk so hold your silence!" - HBP, p.32.

I could not stop myself from quoting because I think that if Snape 
is a DD!M that would have been a PERFECT moment to make Narcissa 
leave AND Bella would have been happy too. I think her report to 
Voldie would have been that Snape as a faithful DE refused to talk 
about his secrets.

Snape did not do it, as I said the best case scenario I see for him 
is if he had no clue about Draco's task and decided to find out 
information about it. And then he got trapped by his arrogance. That 
is of course IMO.

Dung:
> One question – try to think back to your first read of HBP. When 
you 
> were reading Spinner's End, and you got to the last few lines of 
the 
> chapter, did clause 3 surprise you? Or had you been *expecting* 
> Narcissa to trap Snape into agreeing to carry out Draco's task all 
> along? I certainly hadn't. And I doubt that Snape had, either. It 
> was pretty out of the blue, almost below the belt in fact – that's 
> not what he'd *agreed* to vow at all.

Alla:

I honestly don't quite remember. I don't think it was a huge 
surprise, but I am not sure.

To make a very long story short, you tell a very good story, I just 
don't see it coming through, but of course I can be very wrong.

Sorry, Dung, I think you are so much better writer than I am, but we 
operate from fundamentally different assumptions, although at least 
if your assumptions are true, your story is certainly reasonable.

JMO,

Alla