Is Snape good or evil? (long)

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 148672

This has turned out to be very long. I've cobbled it together from 
parts of an even longer half-written post that's been lying around 
for ages, which I've been cannibalising a bit recently, so some bits 
may look familiar.

Alla:
Yes, it is depends on what our assumptions are, doesn't it? I still
do not see any evidence of Snape informing Dumbledore about third
clause of the UV. 

Dung:
No, you're right, there is no evidence. It is never mentioned again 
after we see it. Snape presumably didn't tell Draco about clause 3 
because it would have reinforced Draco's belief that Snape wanted 
the glory for himself, thus Harry doesn't know about it either. But 
we do know about it. I suspect there's a good reason why we do and 
Harry doesn't.

Alla:
I mean, he could have done that, sure, but correct me if I am wrong, 
you seem to agree that Snape WAS stupid to take the Vow, because of 
the third clause, no? I apologise if I am reading you incorrectly, 
but if I am reading you correctly and Snape is at that moment either 
wavering or loyal to DD, when Snape EVER admits in canon that he is 
wrong about something?

Dung:
Phoooooo... You want me to call Snape stupid? Nah. I try not to call 
people stupid (even fictional characters who can't insult me back) 
unless I'm absolutely certain that in their position I'd have done 
something much more clever, and frankly, I would never have been in 
Snape's position in the first place, I'd have high-tailed it out of 
the UK years before. And even if I *had* somehow ended up in that 
position I don't know what I would have done differently. 

If he'd refused clause 3, the game would have been up, wouldn't it? 
Bella would have been *certain* that Snape had been stringing Voldy 
along, and she'd have run straight back to Voldy to tell him. That 
would pretty much mean death for Snape if he ever set foot outside 
Hogwarts again, not to mention the loss of Dumbledore's best source 
of information. What kind of plausible excuse could he have given 
Bella for refusing clause 3? He's already admitted to both of them 
that he thinks this is what Voldemort wants in the end, anyway. 

Alla:
Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about Evil Snape right now, I am
talking about Stupid!Snape ( I know, it is hard to imagine, but try
just for the sake of the argument :-)), Snape under influence of
DADA curse, whatever.

Snape admitting to Dumbledore that he was outplayed by Narcissa and
Bella? Sorry don't see it at all. IMO of course.

Dungrollin:
You're right, Snape has never admitted that he's wrong, ever. Not on-
page. Although... he didn't hex Sirius and pack him off to the 
Aurors in OotP, so I reckon he must have accepted that Sirius 
*wasn't* the one who betrayed the Potters' Fidelius Charm. Accepting 
isn't the same as a public admission, of course, but it's evidence 
that at least once in the past he was wrong, and he didn't 
stubbornly insist that he was right and carry on regardless. So no, 
we've never seen him admit he was wrong on-page, but if DD was 
telling the truth that Snape told him he was remorseful (about ... 
something), then it's a fair bet that he admitted he'd been wrong 
about something then.

I don't think that Snape not admitting he's wrong to, or in front of 
*Harry* (and thus to the reader) means he wouldn't admit it to 
someone else – someone who wouldn't take quite so much delight in 
the spectacle, for example, like Dumbledore.

However, there's a more important 'but': I think that Bella and 
Cissy's visit to Spinner's End was instigated by Voldy (outlined in 
message 148303). I don't think Snape would have too much difficulty 
in admitting to DD in private that *Voldemort* had out-foxed him 
(remember in one of the Occlumency lessons when Harry's repeatedly 
using Voldemort's name? Snape makes it quite obvious that he doesn't 
take Voldy lightly). 

By all means criticise Snape's choices, but please explain what 
better course of action he could have taken and how he could have 
known that it was a more sensible choice *at the time* – i.e a 
better course of action that does *not* rely on 20/20 hindsight. 

Alla:
And of course if Dumbledore only knew that Snape has to protect
Draco, but not to do the deed himself, I can see Dumbledore to go
along with it. 

Dung:
Go along with what? There wouldn't be anything to go along with if 
DD didn't know about clause 3. Dumbledore would simply know that 
when Draco failed in his task (as he surely would) Snape would have 
to look after him, make sure he didn't get arrested, and make sure 
he didn't try to return to Voldemort (who would certainly kill him). 
DD would have intended to overpower Draco, cover up whatever 
happened from the Ministry, get Narcissa into hiding, and keep Draco 
at school. Pretty much what they'd have done without the vow at all. 
Unfortunately, since Snape reckons that Voldy wants him to finish 
the task when Draco fails *before* anyone even mentions an 
Unbreakable Vow, it would still entail Snape leaving the Death 
Eaters for good (he would be under no obligation to kill DD – he 
could refuse, but not without blowing his cover), and there goes 
DD's best source of inside information. DD has only to worry about 
Draco's plot (which all are convinced is doomed to failure anyway), 
and his best spy being outed.

Alla:
But if Dumbledore knew about third clause, I am not
so sure. Dumbledore has a dangerous road of Horcruxes hunting in
front of himself and Harry. Are you saying that he would be SO
confident to leave Harry to it and just easily die to save Snape? I
am just asking to clarify, I am not sure if that is what you are
saying.

Dung:
Let's just go back a bit (please be patient, it's relevant), back to 
before the vow. I'm hanging my conviction that Snape already knew 
about Draco's task on that "He intends me to do it in the end, I 
think" in Spinner's End, ok? So Snape comes back from the DE meeting 
at which he learns this and DD debriefs him. "Draco has joined the 
Death Eaters, and Voldemort has ordered him to murder you. Voldemort 
clearly doesn't think Draco's capable of it, he hasn't said it in so 
many words, but I'm almost certain he wants me to prove my loyalty 
to him once and for all by finishing the job when Draco fails." 

Right, so that's the way the land lies, let's try to find some 
wiggle room and use the situation for our own ends, thinks DD. 
Perhaps they hoped that Draco would never get around to making a 
serious attempt on DD's life, so Snape could hang on in his role of 
spy a little while longer, before Voldy declared Draco dead, and 
officially put Snape on the case. Perhaps they hoped that they could 
pull off a convincing stunt in which DD survived Draco and Snape's 
attack (leaving Snape vulnerable to Voldy's displeasure), but which 
would anyway force Snape to leave Hogwarts. Since this would be the 
first time that Snape had failed at something for the Dark Lord, he 
might be grudgingly let off for the time being – like Bella after 
OotP, but after the attempted murder of Dumbledore, he'd be a 
fugitive from the Ministry, and it would be much more difficult for 
him to report to the Order and DD. 

It's certainly not an easy situation; DD knows that before the year 
is out, Snape's position as spy will be compromised. Since DD gave 
Snape the DADA job around this time, I suppose they were probably 
going with the Snape Leaves Hogwarts After Both He And Draco Fail 
ruse. But then Spinner's End happens and the Unbreakable Vow makes 
everything a lot worse.

Bella's being difficult, so Snape calmly answers her objections with 
all his and DD's pre-prepared responses – the ones that worked so 
well on Voldemort (or at least, well enough so that it's a year 
after Voldy's rebirth before he decides to test Snape's loyalty). 
For some reason, it doesn't seem to work on Bella, she remains 
suspicious. Snape really tries very hard to convince her (as much as 
he's spewing out information for the reader's benefit) and he 
leisurely takes several pages to answer her objections.

Finally he offers to help Draco, Narcissa asks him to make the 
Unbreakable Vow, and Bella scoffs assuming that he won't and that 
this is proof of treachery. Snape thinks, I can look after Draco and 
see he comes to no harm – Dumbledore *already* wants me to do that 
anyway... So, to silence Bella, he agrees. 

Then there's the final clause of the vow, which he wasn't expecting –
 he was expecting to 'help' (which can be interpreted in many ways, 
not only in the performing of the task) and protect Draco, but 
there's a catch. His hand twitches as he realises it (does he 
realise at the same time that this is a trap Voldy has set?), he 
hesitates while Bellatrix watches, realises that his options have 
run out, and agrees. It's over, the vow will kill him, but at least 
he'll maintain his cover until Draco's attempt. I *wouldn't* go so 
far as to call him suicidal, but he certainly risks his life *every* 
time he lies to Voldemort, and I doubt that he thinks he'll live to 
see the end of the war, anyway. It might even have been a relief – 
we don't know how you die when you break an Unbreakable Vow, but 
it's quite possibly less painful than being tortured and killed by 
Voldemort.

So, to answer your point above:
If Snape hadn't told DD about clause 3 (for some reason I keep 
typing '4' by accident), I completely see where you're coming from, 
and it's possible, yep (I don't like it, but hey). In that case 
Snape is duplicitous and Slytherinish and a complete bastard and 
deserves no mercy. Sure. But like you said, we have no evidence 
either way.

Just (try to) imagine that he *did*, imagine that immediately after 
Bella and Cissy leave, Snape goes straight to Hogwarts, up to 
Dumbledore's office, walks in and says "He's caught me out at last. 
I'm going to die."

He then confesses all that happened, that he agreed to take the vow 
to allay Bella's suspicions (and she did look mightily shocked when 
he agreed) and because he thought that all Cissy wanted was some 
protection for Draco. As soon as Cissy added that last clause, he 
realised that this was a cunning trap set by Voldemort, and he'd 
walked straight into it. 

Everything above is basically a long preamble (which I probably 
should have bothered to write out in the last post rather than 
trying to be concise) to the question:
What choice could Dumbledore make in this situation that would 
satisfy the moralists?

How would Dumbledore react to this news? Several lives are in 
danger, here. Dumbledore's, obviously, Draco's – if he fails Voldy 
will kill him and Narcissa, and possibly get Lucius out of Azkaban 
so he can watch/die too, and of course, Snape's (if he fails to 
fulfil his vow, he dies). Their best bet is to prevent Draco making 
any attempts, so Snape tries to keep an eye on him, but Draco has 
been tutored by Bella (again, is this on Voldy's say-so?), who 
perhaps (despite the vow) still doesn't trust Snape, and so Draco's 
having none of it. This is the major spanner in the works. If Draco 
had at least trusted Snape, they would have had a chance to scrape 
together some sort of plan – tell Draco he's been discovered and 
must leave Hogwarts before he's even made an attempt? Something, 
anyway. But Draco's not playing ball, Snape doesn't know what he's 
planning, and so he and DD have no chance of stopping him.

Do you really think that if the above were the case, Dumbledore 
would say "Sorry, Severus old chum, but you're not going to make it 
through this one. I'm much more important than you are for the war 
effort, you know. If you hadn't taken the vow, we could have done 
*something*, but since the vow was *your* mistake, *you're* the one 
who's going to have to pay the price. Oh, and by the way, I found 
this ring that's got a terrible curse on it, can you save my life 
this afternoon, if you're not too busy? (Don't expect me to pay you 
back in kind, or anything – I'm more important than you, remember?) 
And you'd better keep a close eye on Draco, too, all this year: if 
push comes to shove and one of the other Death Eaters gets me, you 
and he are toast, so do try to find out what he's up to, won't you? 
Do you want a medium or large coffin? I can order it by owl this 
afternoon..."

Alla:
I mean, if you argue Superspy!Snape, then I guess I can see your
POV, but I am still under impression that Dumbledore would have been
more helpful to the cause as alive than dead.

Dung:
I don't think anyone would disagree that DD is more use alive than 
dead, but I'm not sure you meant quite that... You meant more use 
than Snape, right?
"The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since 
sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than 
they once were."
*I* probably would have agreed with you, despite that quote, but 
what do you think *Dumbledore* thought? Do you not think he would 
have gone through all possible scenarios in his head? Do you think 
he was only thinking about the fight against Voldemort? Do you think 
it escaped his attention that he was 150, Snape was in his thirties 
and Draco was 16? Remember, he had almost a whole year to think 
about this before it actually happened.

Alla:
Having said all that, I wonder about your take on whether Snape was
lying or telling the truth in general in Spinner's End. If you argue
that Voldemort told Snape about Draco's task is true, doesn't it
strengthen ESE!Snape argument? He knows what Draco task is and STILL
takes the Vow? I mean, Okay you argue that third clause was a
surprise, but still - agreeing to protect Draco while little shmuck
tries to kill Headmaster, isn't it a bit too close to being
accessory?

Dungrollin:
I hope that what I've written above makes it obvious. Snape already  
knew that Voldy wanted him to finish Draco's task when Draco failed, 
and he had already discussed this with DD *before he took the vow*. 
I'm sure their first thought was to try to convince Draco to tell 
Snape what he was up to (one DE to another) – so Snape had better 
look after him and watch him closely this year... 

The DDM!Snape interpretation of all the reasons he gives Bella for 
his loyalty to Voldemort is pretty standard – he's lying, he's a spy.

Alla:
I mean, I will be VERY happy to learn that everything that Snape
said in Spinner's End was true, but that would mean that blood of
Emmeline Vance and Sirius is on his hands.

Dung:
Yeah I know you would. I'd feel decidedly short-changed. 

Alla:
The only way out I see for DD!M(sort of)Snape is for him not to know
about the task and then take the UV because of his affection for
Draco, DADA curse, etc. THEN Snape in my mind has some road to
redemption. That is IMO of course. But Snape knowing that Draco's
task is the Headmaster's assasination and agreeing to protect Draco,
I can only see him as evil.

Dung:
He's pretending to be a *Death Eater* so that he can spy on them, 
Alla. Do you really think that he's in a position to say "No, I'm 
sorry Narcissa, I'm not going to help Draco - you know full-well 
that I'm firmly morally opposed to killing, and this would be 
*murder*." What plausible excuse could he give for slithering out of 
action *again*? 

In fact, it's even possible that he deliberately took the vow 
because he hoped it would make Bella and Draco trust him enough to 
be let in on their plans. If so, it rather backfired, but being a 
spy necessitates taking a few risks, you know. I maintain that it 
was a Voldy trap, and Voldy wanted to be sure of Snape's *absolute* 
loyalty, so he effectively cut his choices down to "either you're on 
my side, or you're dead."

One question – try to think back to your first read of HBP. When you 
were reading Spinner's End, and you got to the last few lines of the 
chapter, did clause 3 surprise you? Or had you been *expecting* 
Narcissa to trap Snape into agreeing to carry out Draco's task all 
along? I certainly hadn't. And I doubt that Snape had, either. It 
was pretty out of the blue, almost below the belt in fact – that's 
not what he'd *agreed* to vow at all.

Sorry it was so long – I hope there was more meat than waffle.

Dungrollin
D.E.L.U.S.I.O.N.A.L. since 16.vii.2005