Snape at GH? (Was: Snape Loved or In-Love with Lily?)

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 148719

> > Carol:
> > I'm not convinced, though, because Snape would
> > have had to know that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and Sirius 
> Black
> > was innocent, which would make his behavior throughout PoA a 
> horrible
> > deception, an act that even he couldn't pull off convincingly.
> 
> Exodusts:
> Given that Snape can out-Occlumens Voldemort, I reckon he could 
> probably pull off any act he wanted BUT I agree that he would seem to 
> lack sufficient motivation to bother doing so in this instance, 


It's not so much that Snape COULDN'T have acted so convincingly upset,
so much as, why would you want to turn a great scene with so much
genuine emotion and tragedy, into "GOTCHA! he was just pretending, no
real drama here, folks". *is mystified*  

> I prefer to 
> interpret Snape's hatred for Sirius at that point as being 
> transferred guilt, blaming him for the death of Lily. 

Well, yeah.  Sort of like, I prefer this building to be supported by
iron t-bars, rather than balsa wood!  JKR is a superb plotter in that
she rests the weight of the story structure on exquisitely opposed and
powerful motivations.  If you jump up and down on a motivation, and it
snaps, you pretty much have to discard it as a theory.

> Exodusts:
> What if Snape only became DDM after the death of Lily? What if he was 
> shocked and stunned by the events that unfolded that night at 
> Godric's Hollow, and fled or wandered off after the destruction of 
> LV, without thinking about the baby in the rubble?

It's canon that Snape turned spy before Lily died-- unless Dumbledore
was lying for some reason in the Pensive scene in OoP.  He testifies
that Snape 'returned to our side' BEFORE V-mort's fall.  Otherwise,
not only would Dumbledore be lying, there would have to be a mystery
OTHER spy to have tipped off the Potters to the danger they were in,
as per Fudge in PoA.

<snippety>

> Exodusts:
> I don't think Snape came to regret telling LV the prophecy until 
> after Lily was dead. 

Again, this is pretty explicity against canon, again, unless
Dumbeldore is lying.  He says Harry would have no idea of the remorse
Snape felt "WHEN HE DISCOVERED HOW VOLDEMORT INTERPRETED THE
PROPHECY".  The Potters went into hiding before they died;  so Snape
would have known who V-mort was targeting before he actually killed them.

> I don't think that Snape could realistically expect to 
> successfully claim ownership of Lily, but he would certainly ask LV 
> to spare Lily's life. 

I just don't see how it's remotely in character for Voldemort to be
sparing the lives of his enemies as a favour to the softer feelings of
one of his minions.  It rather seems to me like an instant death
sentence for Snape to even suggest such a thing.  The only thing I can
picture is Snape successfully putting on an act of wanting to revenge
himself on James by violating Lily, which is a motive Voldemort could
understand;  but how on earth JKR would introduce such an idea into
the story, which so far has maintined a PG, nudge*nudge*wink*wink,
rating is hard for me to imagine.  


> Exodusts:
> I actually agree that, on the evidence we have at the moment, the 
> most likely candidate for being at Godric's Hollow is Peter 
> Pettigrew. 

By the way, is there a reason, aside from JKR's evasiveness in
answering questions, to think there was anyone else at Goderic's
Hollow?  Even if Snape was there in a white leotard trying to save
Lily, I still wouldn't be enthusiastic about it!  It seems to me the
central mystery of the series narrows down to the crucible containing
Lily, Voldemort, and Harry;  everyone else, including Snape, is one
circle out in importance.  JKR might write someone else in, but at the
moment I don't see why.  

On to other matters, i.e. my being totally wrong, LOL, so you take the
above with a grain of salt:

> > Sydney:
> >
> > ...If the secret can't be extorted or tortured out, and it
> > dies with the Keeper, then why bother with the switch?
> > Either JKR or Sirius wasn't firing on all cylinders on this
> > one.. ).
>
> zgirnius:
> Do we know it can't be extorted or tortured out? (AM I missing
> some explanation of this?)

>bboyminn:

>Yes, I think Sydney may be operating under a false assumption here.
>JKR says that Keeper of the Secret can't be forced to reveal the
>secret against their will.

I was even more out to lunch than that-- I carelessly took JKR's thing
about someone Veritaseruming the Potters to mean the secret couldn't
be gained that way;  but her point was actually that they couldn't
give up the secret AT ALL-- THEY weren't the Secret Keepers.  They
could know it, but not divulge it.  I don't know, maybe the SK himself
COULD be forced to give it up by magical means.  On the whole I'm with
JKR herself, in finding the whole logic of the thing a bit boring...
maybe she needs to subcontract this sort of thing out!  (along with
dates...)

I'm unshaken in my opinion that Sirius is an idiot though ;). 


-- Sydney, prepared to be proven wrong on the presence or not of
anybody at GH, but would need a darn good reason