Love and Vengeance (WAS: The Dursleys and Being Nice and Civil)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 145726

Debbie wrote:
>>> ...it is the act of sacrifice as an expression of love, not the 
love itself, that strikes me as extraordinary. For love itself to be 
extraordinary, it must extend beyond those friends and family that 
are the usual and expected objects of that love. And it must reject 
vengeance.<<<

SSSusan:
Interesting that I had not read this post before I submitted my 
response to Jen Reese in the "Stand aside, girl" thread, because I 
also ended up discussing the act of sacrifice as an expression of 
love in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/145722.  

What *I* really appreciate, though, Debbie, is this comment of 
yours --

>>>Furthermore, is vengeance really consistent with Harry's purity 
of heart?  Harry's purity of heart has now saved him from Voldemort 
at least three times. First, in PS/SS, it allowed him to retrieve 
the Stone. In CoS it brought Fawkes and Gryffindor's sword to him. 
And in GoF phoenix song gave him courage because of his purity of 
heart. It plays a role elsewhere as well. In both OOP and HBP he has 
tried to cast Unforgivable Curses, but failed in both attempts. 
Snape tells him during his escape from Hogwarts that Harry lacks the 
nerve or the ability. I think that's true, but the reason why is is 
purity of heart.<<<


SSSusan:
I think this is the extra step I had not included in my vision for 
the ending.  IOW, it's not *just* sacrificial love – or an act of 
sacrifice made out of love – it's the REJECTION of vengeance, as 
well, which would make Harry's action so extraordinary.  

Some people pooh-pooh Harry's purity of heart, but it's one of those 
things that JKR has given us which I buy into wholeheartedly (pardon 
the pun).  There is purity of heart in Harry.  NO, he's not perfect -
– purity of heart does not equal perfection, imo -- but he has a 
purity of heart which has manifested itself numerous times.  So how 
*could* purity of heart & a thirst for vengeance coincide?  It's an 
excellent question and perhaps the CRUX of things for understanding 
JKR's worldview, no?


Debbie:
>>>According to Fantastic Beasts, the phoenix "has never been known 
to kill." Thus, I associate Harry's purity of heart with the 
renunciation of vengeance.<<<


SSS:
I love this last bit!  Debbie, thank you for dragging that in from 
Fantastic Beasts!  I do believe it is excellent support for the 
notion that Harry *will* have to renounce vengeance.  The Order of 
the Phoenix, Fawkes the phoenix as DD's pet (or familiar?), the 
phoenix "rescue" in CoS, the phoenix-song dome in GoF, the phoenix 
feather in Harry's wand -- there is so MUCH in the phoenix and its 
symbolism for the HP books that I think we'd be foolish to ignore 
any clues about them.


Debbie went on:
>>>Despite his apparent resolve, Harry is far from eager to take on 
his task.

"`I've got to find them and destroy them and then I've got to go 
after the seventh bit of Voldemort's soul, the bit that's still in 
his body, and I'm the one who's going to kill him. And if I meet 
Severus Snape along the way,' he added, 'so much the better for me, 
so much the worse for him.'"

He's preparing hinself to kill Voldemort because he thinks it's what
Dumbledore wanted him to do.  But it's almost as though his resolve 
is hardened by the thought of meeting Snape along the way and 
avenging Dumbledore's death. But we know that's not going to happen. 
The inclusion of Snape in his thinking here seems a sure sign that 
he does not yet understand the nature of his mission.<<<


SSSusan:
Yes again. It's going to be a fascinating trip for Harry in this 
final year! So many of us expect Harry will have to battle mightily 
against his hatred of Snape, his anger against him for all he's 
done, most especially for the killing of DD.  And there is, of 
course, his desire for vengeance against Voldy in addition.  HOW in 
the world is Harry going to get past this?  

Debbie already pointed out how Harry's actions in the Shrieking 
Shack (not killing Sirius, not allowing Sirius & Remus to kill 
Pettigrew) give an indication that he *might* well be inclined to 
set aside vengeance for "the right thing" (summarized by Debbie 
thusly:  "Harry has shown flashes of the higher justice that mercy 
represents").  I may be misreading HBP, but in my reading of it, I 
felt a wee glimpse of empathy from Harry for Tom Riddle and his 
mother.  That just might be key in his letting go of vengeance with 
Voldemort.  But Snape?  How's Harry going to get past that?

In my view, the only way will be for Harry to learn – from *someone, 
somehow* -- what Snape's role really was in DD's death, which would, 
of course, require a DDM!Snape as well as someone stepping in to 
provide the details.  There are several possibilities for how this 
might happen in Book 7, and it's something which I'm most 
anticipating/hoping for about that book.

WHATEVER happens, though, I think there's a lot of growth and 
discernment yet in store for our Harry.  


Debbie:
>>> I've written in the past that I am attracted to Horcrux!Harry 
theories because it would allow him to defeat Voldemort through his 
own self-sacrifice rather than by killing him outright. While I 
still like that idea (and believe that Harry will demonstrate a 
willingness to sacrifice himself, I don't believe that the 
denouemont of the series will be Harry's death (by sacrifice or 
otherwise, and whether or not he is a horcrux).

Instead, I think Harry will discover that the key to vanquishing 
Voldemort is love, exemplified by mercy. Voldemort will understand 
that he is wholly dependent on Harry's mercy. And Harry, being pure 
in heart, will grant it.<<<

SSSusan:
Again, we're in the same place – I envision it as a WILLINGNESS to 
sacrifice himself which won't actually need to come to fruition or 
somehow won't result in his death.  I'm not fond of Horcrux!Harry, 
but if that's the way to accomplish this, then I'm for it in spite 
of my dislike of it. ;-)

I know there are list members who are *not at all* fond of this idea 
of letting go of vengeance, of granting mercy.  Again though, I 
think we're at the CRUX of the issue:  What is *JKR's* inclination 
here?  What is *her* view of Good, Right, Fair and Just?  I'm 
inclined to agree with Debbie that it's likely to revolve around 
mercy and a renunciation of vengeance.  I totally *understand* why 
some would not find that "fair" nor satisfying, but since it's 
rather in alignment with my own view of things (and with DD's as 
well, I believe), then I know I'm in pretty good shape if something 
of this sort occurred.


Debbie:
>>> So why does Dumbledore insist that Harry has 'got to' try to kill
Voldemort?

Perhaps Dumbledore is simply acknowledging that the desire for 
revenge is a natural human response to grief. Perhaps he has not yet 
discerned how Harry can use the power of love as a weapon as well as 
a shield. Perhaps Dumbledore knows that it can be channelled into a 
higher form of justice, but realizes that Harry must discern for 
himself how to do that.

In fact, the mercy Dumbledore is willing to grant to Draco on the 
Astronomy Tower seems much closer to the "Love thine enemies" quote 
than it does to his approval of Harry's "furious desire for revenge."
<snip>
He doesn't just forgive Draco; he offers him a shot at redemption. 
Maybe Dumbledore's actions on the Tower foreshadow the final 
confrontation.<<<

SSSusan:
Exactly.  I think DD may not have it all totally figured out, but I 
do think he believes firmly in "a higher form of justice," in love 
over vengeance, and in mercy.  I'll grant that there seems a little 
inconsistency just now in the language DD uses, but I think his 
actions as a whole speak to love, second chances, forgiveness, mercy 
and sacrifice.

Will eat the necessary crow later if necessary, of course.

Siriusly Snapey Susan