Love and Vengeance (WAS: The Dursleys and Being Nice and Civil)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 145764

SSSusan earlier:
> > I think this is the extra step I had not included in my vision 
> > for the ending. IOW, it's not *just* sacrificial love – or an 
> > act of sacrifice made out of love – it's the REJECTION of 
> > vengeance, as well, which would make Harry's action so 
> > extraordinary.
> > <snip>
> > So how *could* purity of heart & a thirst for vengeance 
> > coincide? It's an excellent question and perhaps the CRUX of 
> > things for understanding JKR's worldview, no?

Alla:
> I don't know if they cannot be together though, love and vengeance,
> I mean. 
> 
> I read Debbie's wonderful post and I am fully with her and with you
> too, I guess that Harry will not kill Voldemort. He just won't.


SSSusan:
I think I should clarify.  While I definitely cannot speak for 
Debbie, I am not at all certain that Harry will not kill Voldemort.  
What I don't think will happen is that he'll walk up and 
shout "Avada Kedavra!" with hate in his heart and murder Voldy.  But 
I think it is entirely possible that *whatever* action Harry takes – 
in my opinion some form of intended self-sacrifice – will result in 
the vanquishment/destruction of Voldy and that that might, nay 
probably will, mean his death as well.  

The thing is, I don't think Harry will do it because he HATES Voldy 
but because he loves others, wants to protect others from the hatred 
which Voldy personifies.  So the motivation would be a desire to end 
the pain and evil which Voldy brings, rather than a desire for 
vengeance or through some tremendous release of hatred.

Does that make sense?

And while I think this is possible – that an action of Harry's will 
result in Voldy's death – I think it's also possible that there will 
be some other form of destruction of Voldy that might come about 
WITHOUT Harry's actually killing him directly.  Can't fathom what in 
the world it would be, but I wouldn't put it past Jo to come up with 
a means.



Alla explained:
> Therefore Lord Voldemort will get what is coming to him, even 
> though Harry may even feel some pity for the boy who was once Tom 
> Riddle or something like that.
>
> So, IMO we will get both things, mercy and sort vengeance form of
> justice.

SSSusan:
I definitely agree that Voldy will get what is coming to him, but 
I'm not in agreement that it will come *out* of a desire for 
vengeance in Harry.  THAT'S the point I was trying to make.  

IOW, I think Voldy will cease to be, Harry will have THE major role 
to play in that occurrence, but I do not believe that Harry will go 
into that final situation – whatever it is – with vengeance on his 
mind.  He will, I think, go into it believing Voldy must be 
stopped.  If there is a way to do that which will involve 
forgiveness of Voldy, I can see that happening; I can also see that 
not necessarily being a part of JKR's package.  But what I don't 
think I can envision is a Harry who goes into it thinking "Voldy's 
going to get what he *deserves,* and *I'm* going to be the one to 
give it to him!" (aka, with vengeance as his motivation).


Alla:
> I have faith in JKR's writing abilities, I am sure she can pull off
> even such scenario well ( even though it is indeed truly not my
> favorable one), BUT if you believe that Snape needs to get what is
> coming to him for many bad deeds he committed during his life time,
> as I definitely do, I don't see that Harry's forgiveness and 
> Snape's punishment should be mutually exclusive.

SSSusan:
I absolutely still have faith in JKR's writing abilities, as well.  
Again, I guess the question here is whether it's "necessary" for 
Snape to get his punishment *from* Harry himself.  That's what I was 
getting at with Voldy, too.  Snape and Voldy *may* each "get 
theirs," but I'm not at all convinced that it will be HARRY who's 
making sure they get it, or at least that he'll make sure *because* 
he wants vengeance.  

So, no, it's not that Snape's and Voldy's punishment/getting what 
they deserve can't happen if Harry feels forgiveness or displays 
mercy -- or, as you say, that those are mutually exclusive 
happenings.  What I do think is that any feeling of vengeance in 
Harry will NOT occur in the same moment as the forgiveness or 
mercy.  IOW, I think he would have a change of heart about any 
vengeful desires.  Thus, the comeuppance might come at a different 
time or even from a different source than Harry.  What I can't 
picture is Harry saying, "I HATE you and I'm going to get you back 
for all that you've done!" and then saying, "Wait.  I forgive you 
and grant you your life out of mercy."  THOSE things, in the same 
moment, do indeed seem mutually exclusive.

And, since I believe in Harry's purity of heart, I guess I believe 
that the tendency towards mercy will prevail over any thoughts of 
vengeance he might first have.

 
Alla:
> I am sure that Harry will not kill Snape... BUT I also think that 
> at some point in book 7, Snape WILL stand absolutely powerless at 
> Harry's mercy AND I think Snape will hate it very much. That would 
> be SUFFICIENT for me to see Snape powerless even for a brief 
> moment in time ( for all six years of Harry being powerless in 
> front of Snape)

SSSusan:
Right.  This would be Harry experiencing mercy *not* at the same 
moment that he wants vengeance, correct?  It's the desire for 
vengeance occurring at the same time as an act of mercy or 
forgiveness which seems totally incongruous to me.


SSSusan earlier:
> > What is *JKR's* inclination here? What is *her* view of Good, 
> > Right, Fair and Just? I'm inclined to agree with Debbie that 
> > it's likely to revolve around mercy and a renunciation of 
> > vengeance.

Lupinlore wrote:
> I think one problem isn't so much the issue of justice and 
> satisfaction (although those certainly are extremely important 
> issues which other threads are exploring) as the -- *sigh* how to 
> put it? – sheer and overwhelming SERMONIZING that would 
> constitute. If we end up with something as, well, extreme as this, 
> I would have to say that for someone who has a horror of preaching 
> JKR has shown a rather insipid inclination to engage in it.

[Lupinlore in same thread, different post:]
> If, on the other hand, he says "I refuse to raise my wand against 
> you, O Voldemort, for despite that you have tormented me I refuse 
> to sink to thy contrivance," I honestly think I'll have to be 
> rushed to the hospital for treatment of life-threatening nausea.


SSSusan:
I think this goes back to what Alla said about faith in JKR's 
writing.  She & I seem to have a good deal more faith in that than 
you do.  For me, I see no reason to expect that an ending involving 
love or forgiveness or mercy would necessarily involve sermonizing 
or preaching.  As you noted, JKR has managed to insert morality or 
moral messages without having her books be "morality tales."  Why 
could the ending – whether the one you want, the one I want, or 
something different than either entirely – not be done by JKR 
*without* preaching and stilted, cheesy, insipid language (to borrow 
a few of your favorite words for your worries about JKR's writing ;-
))?  

Again, no matter WHAT ending – whether Harry screaming out in rage 
as he AKs Voldy (which some would like to see but I would not) or 
Harry sacrificing himself in order to save those whom he loves and 
the WW at large (which is my preference) or something else entirely –
 what have we seen from Jo to indicate that she's going to preach at 
us?  Could she not pull off an elegantly simple solution to this 
mystery which leaves us all touched without causing us to snort in 
derision or roll our eyes?  

Perhaps I'm naïve, but I still believe she'll do it, even if it's 
not the ending I'm expecting or hoping for.

Siriusly Snapey Susan