No: HPFGUIDX 145993
> > > Pippin:
> > > The existence of an unidentified Death Eater who "sent" the
> > > Lestranges to attack the Longbottoms per JKR's website.
> > > Bella would not take orders from Snape or Peter. JKR says all
> > > the major characters have been introduced. So who was it?
> >
> > Alla:
> > Oh, I am sure that we will know the person. My money is on Snape
> > of course.
Christina:
I'd also bring up the possibility of Lucius Malfoy. Just a thought.
>> Amiable Dorsai:
>> And what a powerfully useful addition to Voldemort's ranks Remus
>> must be! Imagine having the cool nerve, the incredible aim, and the
>> split second timing needed to hex Sirius from a distance--with a
>> spell that leaves a visible trail between the caster and the
>> target--in front of Harry, Neville, Dumbledore and Kingsley, (I
>> think that completes the list of good guys, saving Sirius himself,
>> who were conscious at the time) and not have any of them notice!
>> Wandlessly!
> Pippin:
> I think you will find that Dumbledore was looking away, Kingsley
> was behind the dais, and Harry and Neville were behind Lupin.
Christina:
Sirius's death scene is *very* hard to block out, just because it is a
fast-action battle scene with many players, in which Harry is not
paying much attention.
Yes, Dumbledore was looking away, but Kingsley's position isn't really
specified. His last mention before Sirius's death is a couple of
pages back, and the next we hear of him is here:
(OotP, Scholastic, page 808)
"Behind the dais there was still flashes of light, grunts, and cries
-- Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius's duel with Bellatrix."
(end quote)
It's unclear whether Kingsley had been behind the dais the entire
time, or what. Bellatrix was obviously standing in front of it when
she was dueling with Sirius, so she must have moved to the back. The
language sounds more like Kingsley approached Bellatrix than the other
way around, so I would figure that Bella was running behind the dais
with the intention of running out of the room and escaping. Kingsley,
seeing this, ran behind the dais also to engage her. So, while
Kingsley could have been behind the dais the entire time, we really
don't know his exact position.
Now, Harry and Neville. Saying that they were behind Lupin isn't
entirely accurate. They were actually *above* him, which makes a huge
difference in how they would have witnessed the spell that knocked
Sirius into the veil. Here is the canon description for the room:
(OotP, Scholastic, page 773)
"...the center of it was sunken, forming a great stone pit some twenty
feet below them....stone benches running all around the room and
descending in steep steps like an amphitheater...there was a raised
stone dais in the center of the lowered floor....Harry scrambled down
the benches....The pointed archway looked much taller from where he
stood now than when he had been looking down at it from above."
(end quote)
Now, Harry and Neville are somewhere on the raised benches when Sirius
falls through the veil (Dumbledore rushes past them on his way down to
the middle of the room). The highest up that Harry could be is about
twenty feet. Judging from how long it took Harry to get to the bottom
of the room and the way his breath was coming "in searing gasps (p.
806)," I think it's safe to say that Harry was more than a step or two
from the bottom of the room. Lupin is standing on the floor, below
the dais. Harry saw the scene from above both Lupin and Sirius.
Lupin's exact position isn't specified, but nothing is mentioned about
him running up to meet Harry as Harry ran to the dais, which suggests
that Harry ran *past* Lupin to get there, meaning that Lupin should
have been in Harry's line of sight from the benches (although it
wouldn't really even matter if Lupin wasn't in Harry's direct line of
sight or not, which I'll get to in a second).
The narrative states that Sirius ducks out of the way of "Bellatrix's
jet of red light (p. 805)." A lot of hay has been made about the fact
that the origin of the second jet of light is not specified. However,
Harry can obviously see enough of Bella and Sirius to know that the
*first* jet of light was from her wand. If Lupin was the origin of
the second jet of light, wouldn't Harry have noticed a difference?
After all, Bellatrix is standing above Lupin, and if Lupin wanted to
cast a spell with his wand covertly, he would have to be holding it at
his side. The trajectory of a spell coming from Lupin would have been
so different from one coming from Bella that Harry should have noticed
this difference immediately. Not to mention the fact that Harry has
the advantage of height, meaning that there wasn't anything that
should have blocked his view of the jet of light.
> Pippin:
> Sirius calls out to Harry to take the prophecy and run. If he saw
> it in Harry's hand, what need to tell him to take it? But if not,
> how would he think that Harry knew what he was talking about? Snape
> and Dumbledore know that Harry hasn't a clue what the prophecy
> is or how to recognize it. The Death Eaters don't know that.
> According to Lucius, they assumed that Dumbledore would have
> told Harry all about it. So who could have conveyed that assumption
> to Sirius? Only a Death Eater -- and not Snape.
Christina:
This is an interesting point, so I'll try to address it. I think what
you are saying is that perhaps Lupin made Sirius think that Harry knew
more about the prophecy than he actually did. Well, we have canon
that Sirius was in contact with Dumbledore throughout GoF and OotP,
updating Dumbledore on matters concerning Harry. We also know that
Sirius is well aware that Dumbledore does not want Harry to know a
whole lot about what's going on (and Sirius does keep his mouth shut
at critical junctures). So I hesitate to think that, prior to
arriving in the DoM, Sirius had incorrect notions of how much Harry
knew about the prophecy. Also, if Lupin had mentioned something that
contradicted what Dumbledore had said, I think Sirius would have
noticed and found it odd.
Okay, so that leaves your very good question about why Sirius said
what he said. First, there's always the possibility that JKR didn't
give that much thought to Sirius's comment and that we're reading too
much into it. Next, there's the possiblity that Sirius wasn't
thinking too much at the time and blurted out "Take the prophecy"
because it was shorter to say than "Take that cloudly glass round
thing." There's also the possiblity that Sirius just figured that
Harry knew what the glass ball was from the fact that Harry & Co. had
been fighting with the Death Eaters about it. Sirius might have just
assumed that the subject of what the glass ball was had come up before
he got there.
Also, we know that sound carries in the DoM. Harry and Hermione can
hear Malfoy and the other Death Eaters talking through a door (Harry
puts his ear close, but Hermione doesn't and she can still hear what
is said). My point is, no more than 10 seconds before the Order
enters the battle, Bellatrix says, "Now, Potter, either give us the
prophecy, or watch your little friend die the hard way! (p. 801)"
Given that the "Veil room" is particularly good at carrying sound (I
think Harry mentions sounds echoing in the room), I think it would be
reasonable to theorize that the Order members heard Bella's words
right before they entered the fight.
> > Alla:
> >
> > Such as this one - Lupin also suspected that Sirius was a spy,
> > right? Do you categorize Sirius as one of DE also?
> Pippin:
> I don't see the relevance. If Lupin was mistaken about Sirius, does
> that somehow imply that Sirius was mistaken about Lupin?
Christina:
No, it doesn't. But I think what Alla is trying to say (and I agree
with her here) is that Sirius suspecting Lupin isn't very good
evidence that Lupin is ESE. Alla was providing an instance where one
character suspected another of being ESE and was wrong (something
that, IIRC, happens a few times in the series). So, saying that
Sirius's suspicions of Lupin is evidence of ESE!Lupin is kind of like
saying that Lupin and Dumbledore's suspicions of Sirius can be used as
evidence for ESE!Sirius.
> Pippin:
> Lupin has always been susceptible to pressure from his peer
> group. He now sees the werewolves as his peers, his fellows and
> equals, and they have a common enemy in Umbridge. The
> werewolves are mostly on Voldemort's side. So there would
> be pressure on Lupin to go along, and if his conscience complained
> about it, he has a long history of not listening.
Christina:
I think you're making a bit of a leap here. We know that Lupin is
susceptible to pressure from his *friends*. In talking about Lupin's
tendency to go along with other people (keeping his own concerns
quiet), JKR has said that this trait comes from Lupin's desire to be
liked. I would actually argue that much of Lupin's "cutting his
friends slack" has disappeared between the pensieve scene of OotP and
Lupin's current adult self (we see him physically and verbally
restraining Sirius MANY times over the course of the series). I think
this was more of a problem for Lupin when he was younger. Now that he
is part of the new Order, there are many people that keep company with
him (Tonks, Molly, Arthur, Dumbledore). The rest of the Order members
seem to get along with him, and when going to pick up Harry at Privet
Drive, the Advance Guard allows Lupin to take a fair bit of charge.
As a kid, Lupin lets his three friends get away with whatever they
want because he if he nags them about their habits, they might shun
him from the group. Then Lupin wouldn't have any friends at all. But
many members of the WW have been kind and friendly to Lupin during the
series, and so he should feel no "need" to cut his fellow werewolves
slack. Why does he care if they approve of him? He does not need
their friendship.
Also, even when Lupin was a child, his conscience *still* never rested
easy. Note that he lets the pensieve scene happen, but he does NOT
join in. His conscience lets him sit there as long as he is taking no
active part. But your vision of ESE!Lupin has him taking a *very*
active role, going as far as murder. Secondly, we also know that on
top of not joining in, Lupin *did* make his objections somewhat known.
Sirius says that Lupin made him and James feel "ashamed of
themselves" from time to time, meaning that Lupin did bring up his
concerns at least occasionally. Can you imagine Lupin gently prodding
Voldemort about *his* bad deeds? Yikes!
Of course, you are assuming that Lupin actually *has* a conscience and
is going along with the DE's because of peer pressure or his identity
as a werewolf. You could also claim that Lupin doesn't really have a
conscience at all, but then you can't use Lupin's passivity in dealing
with his friends (which you generalize to peers) as evidence for ESE.
I'm going to step back for a second and mention one more thing here,
because your comment really hit on one of my biggest personal
objections to ESE!Lupin. One of JKR's primary themes in the series is
discrimination and prejudice. Throughout his life, people are afraid
of Lupin and suspect him of wrongdoing *solely* because he is a
werewolf. We do not know exactly why Sirius thought Lupin was a spy,
but I'll bet that your exact line of thinking was going through the
back of his head ("All the werewolves are turning to Voldemort, Remus
has been so good at keeping secrets from people in the past, etc").
We know that most werewolves really *are* turning to Voldemort, and
we've met Fenrir Greyback, who I'd argue is the epitome of werewolfish
evil, and Lupin's foil. What would it say if Lupin ultimately *did*
end up being evil? The public was right all along! Werewolves really
*can't* be trusted; they are inherently Dark and can follow no path
but one of evil. I always cringe when matters of theme come up, but I
think that ESE!Lupin would seriously undermine a huge part of what JKR
is trying to say. It's all over the books. Hagrid (and his brother)
show us that not *all* giants are bad, Sirius shows us that not *all*
purebloods (and Blacks) are evil, Dobby shows us that not *all* house
elves like being enslaved. By the same token, so much attention has
been called to the horrible discrimination that faces werewolves, that
I'd be shocked if we were left at the end of the series with every
last werewolf being evil. Those are just my own personal feelings
though, but I do feel like they make some sense.
To quickly address a couple of your other points:
Pippin:
> Peter's stellar incompetence as a spy
Christina:
Not sure where you're going with this one, but we *know* that Peter is
a spy. We've seen him in DE mode, and he's admitted to it. Also, I
wouldn't say that Peter is as generally incompetent as people like to
think he is (many fans, and James and Sirius). He is competent enough
to bring Voldemort back to life without messing things up. And he is
*extremely* competent as a *spy* - the man can turn into a rat!
Pippin:
> his grievance against Umbridge
Christina:
Basically all the good guys we know have grievances with Umbridge.
Pippin:
> his attempt to kill Peter in cold blood
Christina:
I'm not sure how you mean this. Are you referring to the fact that
Lupin was able and willing to kill another human being? If you are,
well then so was Sirius, and we're not calling him ESE. Also, if
Lupin were ESE, I'd argue that he'd have less of a reason to want to
kill Peter.
Pippin:
>Fenrir Greyback's ability to predict the time of his transformations
>well enough that he can position himself to attack specific victims
>(HBP ch 16)
Christina:
Well, anybody that wants to figure out when a werewolf will transform
can- it's at moonrise. All werewolves have the ability to know when
they will transform. That doesn't mean that all of them will use it
to evil ends. Again, this goes back to the idea that all werewolves
aren't evil simply because they can be.
Pippin:
>His ability to tell what Harry and Sirius are thinking
Christina:
Although I generally agree with Legilimens!Lupin, it can be argued.
Lupin may just be a very emotionally perceptive individual. He is
certainly very good at relating to people even when Legilimency
wouldn't help or make a difference (ie, with Molly and the boggart).
However, Dumbledore can also tell what people are thinking. I don't
think that Legilimency can be used as evidence that somebody is evil.
Pippin:
>His ability to perform wandless and non-verbal magic
Christina:
Non-verbal magic is taught to every sixth year student that passes
through Hogwarts. And we don't know how common wandless magic is.
Again, just because Lupin is a talented wizard, doesn't mean that he
is a Death Eater. He could just be, you know, a talented wizard.
Christina