Special treatment - yes or no/Rules

justcarol67 justcarol67 at yahoo.com
Mon Jan 9 19:30:05 UTC 2006


No: HPFGUIDX 146155

Magpie wrote: 
> > Point taking and giving is completely arbitrary and the reasons
given for their points at the end certainly qualify. <snip>

Valky countered:
<snip>
House Points are not so arbitrary either, they are taken for
rulebreaking and they are awarded for winning the Quidditch games. <snip>

Carol responds:
I agree that points are deducted for rule-breaking (and, in Snape's
case, for disrespectful behavior from Harry and Ron). But points are
not awarded only for winning Quidditch games or there would be little
point in having a House Cup as well as a Quidditch Cup. They are also
awarded in special circumstances such as the Trio and Neville acting
bravely in SS/PS and Harry and his friends fighting the DEs in the
MoM, an incident I'll return to later in relation to Snape. And some
teachers award them for answering questions correctly or performing a
spell correctly. I recall Sprout, Lupin, Flitwick, and the substitute
COMC teacher Grubbly-Plank awarding points for this reason. So if
Snape awarded someone points for making a potion correctly, he would
not be out of line (except in rewarding points to Slytherins but not
Hermione, the only Gryffindor we know of who excels at Potions). But I
still don't recall his giving points for any reason, even to Draco,
and certainly not to Crabbe, Goyle, Blaise, Theo, or Pansy.

Anyway, I agree with Magpie that both giving and taking points seems
to be arbitrary. Some teachers reward correct answers with points;
others don't AFAWK. (We never see Binns, Trelawney, or many other
teachers either giving or taking points. Lockhart, IIRC, gave them to
people he thought were his admirers. Flitwick, in contrast,
enthusiastically rewards students from any house who perform Charms
well, or so we can infer from his awarding points to Hermione for
making her feather hover in the very first class. McGonagall does seem
to deduct points fairly, punishing both Draco and her own students for
being out of bed in SS/PS, but we have no idea whether she awards them
fairly as well. We don't know if she would reward a Slytherin for
Transfiguring a hedgehog into a pincushion on his first attempt
because we only see her with students from her own House.) The
*number* of points taken away for infractions also seems to be
arbitrary, just as the number of days of serving detention and the
specific punishment (whether it's polishing trophies or helping Hagrid
catch a unicorn killer) is completely arbitrary and at the discretion
of the individual teacher. 
 
Magpie wrote:
> > It is canon that Snape takes points away from Gryffindor for petty
things sometimes and that we never see him take away points (or give
points, that I remember) to his own house.  It's also canon that in
later years Slytherin is able to lose the cup despite Dumbledore not
adding points at the last minute without Snape changing [the point
total]. 
> 
Valky countered:
> On the first point, and for the benefit of everyone who has asked me
to recall my canon examples, I recall Snape giving some House points
to a Slytherin Potions student, and from the perspective we are given
it seems like an open display of house favouritism. I recall it
happening only on one occasion, but I cannot find it in the PS/SS
chapters so perhaps it is a later book. OTOH we do not see him taking
away House Points from Slytherins when he clearly should have done on
numerous occasions and I see you have agreed to that, Magpie. I also
recall some examples of him being unwilling to give Hermione point
recognition for outstanding work, and of course we all agree that he
takes points from Harry at every opportunity, fair or unfair.

Carol responds:
I agree that Snape has never awarded Hermione any points (he merely
withholds criticism from her when she does well, which from Snape
probably feels like a reward) and that he only mildly chides Slytherin
students (or Draco, anyway) when he would ordinarily deduct points for
rule breaking. But, again, I don't remember his *giving* points at
all, only deducting them (although as I said above, it would not be
out of line to reward a student for performing well in a class. It
seems to be accepted procedure among the few "good" teachers,
including Lupin and Flitwick.) And it isn't only Gryffindor that Snape
deducts points from. As we see at the Yule Ball, he takes ten points
each from Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff for rule breaking (Miss Fawcett and
a boy whose name I can't remember making out in the rosebushes), so 
at least he treats Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff equally. (I'm not arguing
that he doesn't favor Slytherin; there are cases when he should deduct
points from Draco and doesn't. But I would still like to see the canon
for his giving points to anyone for any reason. As Magpie or someone
said, "the man likes TAKING points.")
 
As for Snape's "abuse of power" (mentioned in a paragraph that I've
snipped because it's otherwise irrelevant to my argument here), I
don't think he would have awarded points to Slytherin to give them
back the cup in SS/PS if DD had awarded Gryffindor points for the
events relating to the defeat of Quirrell!mort before the end-of-year
feast. After all, he, too, was trying to thwart Quirrell, whether or
not he knew that Quirrell was in league with (and possessed by) LV.
And as Magpie noted, Snape doesn't interfere with the point count in
any other book. Note that when Gryffindor is completely out of points
in OoP and McGonagall grants fifty points each to HRH, Neville, and
Ginny (and a further reluctant fifty to Luna for Ravenclaw) for the
events in the MoM and then deducts the ten from Harry that Snape had
intended to deduct, Snape does nothing to interfere with the point
total, neither adding further points to Slytherin for some arbitrary
reason nor finding cause to deduct more points from Gryffindor.
Granted, he should have taken ten points from Draco as well as from
Harry, but it was Harry who had his wand out and Harry admitted that
he was planning to hex Draco. So from Snape's standpoint if not from
the reader's, his actions were fair.

It's interesting, from the standpoint of this thread, that Snape
throughout the books (not counting that anamoly, HBP) is the rule
enforcer, the teacher who prowls the corridors at night looking for
rule breakers, the one who tries hardest (but unsuccessfully) to keep
Harry out of Hogsmeade in PoA. According to Dumbledore, a Slytherin
ought to have, like Harry, "a certain disrespect for the rules," yet
Snape consistently enforces them, at least for Gryffindor and HRH. And
he does at least stop Draco from fighting in the corridors on several
occasions, even if he doesn't deduct points from him.

My point is that I see no evidence that Snape is deliberately swaying
the House points in favor of Slytherin by any means other than not
deducting points from his own House for rule-breaking. We don't see
him trying to rob Gryffindor of its victory in any other book, nor do
we ever see him unfairly granting points to Slytherin. Even if Snape
did grant points in the single instance that Valky recalls (and I'd
like to see the canon for it, Valky, if you can find it), that
instance would be an exception to his usual behavior, which is to
deduct rather than add points. The only thing I recall that's at all
similar to granting Slytherin unfair House points is granting
*Hufflepuff* a penalty shot for what Harry considers to be no reason
in a Quidditch game against Gryffindor (and Snape is probably still
angry because George Weasley has just aimed a bludger at him--for no
reason at all except that he's Snape.)

Carol, still not seeing the evidence that Snape helped Slytherin
acquire its House points unfairly in SS/PS (or any other book) but
conceding that Slytherin cheats at Quidditch








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