Special treatment - yes or no/Rules

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 146136

Magpie: 
> Point taking and giving is completely arbitrary and the 
> reasons given for their points at the end certainly qualify.  I 
> (and others) have said that allowing the hall to be decorated in 
> Slytherin banners so that they could be taken down and replaced 
> a dramatic move to give a surprise to Harry unnecessarily singled 
> was out Slytherin and would undoubtedly have annoyed all the kids 
> in that house. I think Dumbledore just wanted to make his points a 
> surprise which involved a big PSYCH to Slytherin.

Valky:
And it is on that particular point which I disagree. Winding us back 
to my original point, I am saying that Dumbledore did not save 
his 'surprise' in order to revere Harry or Gryffindor House above 
Slytherin (neither deliberately nor indavertantly because I am 
losing track of whose arguing which, now :P) but that the 
presentation of the House Points at the end of the book fits within 
the context of the PS/SS story, where -

- we see Slytherin Members being petty, sneaky and unfair in 
relation to the House Points competition (House Points are not so 
arbitrary either, they are taken for rulebreaking and they are 
awarded for winning the Quidditch games). 

- and not a one of the three other houses can come close to 
Slytherin's points accumulation at the end of the year, 

- it had been that way for many years.

and put simply, the Slytherin creed of 'anything goes as long as 
Slytherin wins' comes through quite clearly in the story as the 
oppressor of everyone else. This is especially shown through the 
eyes of the key protagonist 'Harry' but it is a small book with 
distinctly 'children's' flavour, even so the other houses lose too, 
they lose to a seemingly irrepressable force whose only goal is to 
win. 

The Trio's goal under the trapdoor has nothing to do with gaining 
points, they set out to do something truly virtuous, with no thought 
of the reward. The juxtaposition of these points against those of 
the house that seeks only the reward therefore is how I see 
Dumbledore's actions in the end of the story. Not as a criticism of 
the Slytherin House, but as the demonstration of an example for all 
of Hogwarts. Slytherins colours are up although everyone knows what 
the trio did, even with such events going on in Hogwarts nobody 
questions the superiority of the Slytherin reasoning of battling 
amongst each other for House Points which has dominated Hogwarts so 
long. Except Dumbledore. The singling out of Slytherin was not 
unnecessary, it was natural, in such a Hogwarts, Slytherin naturally 
flourishes. 



> Valky:
> I am not sure how to answer that. I don't understand what authority
> you have that on, Magpie. There *is* a subplot of Slytherins 
> playing unfairly in the House cup challenge.
> 
> Magpie:
> It is canon that Snape takes points away from Gryffindor for petty 
> things sometimes and that we never see him take away points (or 
> give points, that I remember) to his own house.  It's also canon 
> that in later years Slytherin is able to lose the cup despite 
> Dumbledore not adding points at the last minute without Snape 
> changing. 

Valky:
On the first point, and for the benefit of everyone who has asked me 
to recall my canon examples, I recall Snape giving some House points 
to a Slytherin Potions student, and from the perspective we are 
given it seems like an open display of house favouritism. I recall 
it happening only on one occasion, but I cannot find it in the PS/SS 
chapters so perhaps it is a later book. OTOH we do not see him 
taking away House Points from Slytherins when he clearly should have 
done on numerous occasions and I see you have agreed to that, 
Magpie. I also recall some examples of him being unwilling to give 
Hermione point recognition for outstanding work, and of course we 
all agree that he takes points from Harry at every opportunity, fair 
or unfair.

On the second point you made Magpie, which is indeed a good point, I 
can only say I speculate that we are perhaps supposed to take into 
account what changes may have come in the mindset of Hogwarts 
students as a result of the Trio's actions in the first book. In 
that, I mean that overall the spirits of the students from other 
Houses were lifted by the experience, and faith in striving for some 
greater good rather than battling to keep/gain House points, was 
restored in Hogwarts. In this case a teacher like Snape would be up 
against it, whereas previously his abuse of power would have seemed 
to be an ultimate force in a students life, and the students would 
have felt helpless against it, after Dumbledore's demonstration 
Snape's pettiness with points would have had much less an effect on 
the students, that power to deflate the students of other houses 
lost to him. 

Of course you have to buy my first premise on what was the point of 
shaming Slytherin's win in PS/SS in order to agree with that, but 
FWIW there is my explanation.



Magpie:
> Draco may have told on Harry and tempted him to break the 
> rules so he'd get caught but Harry's points lost for being out of 
> bed are perfectly fair if he is out of bed. 

Valky:
LOL ahh that's exactly what I mean by saying that this became an 
ultimate power that could dampen the spirits of the students, you're 
right, Slytherin is right. Those points are perfectly fair to be 
taken. This is the environment in which Slytherin thrives, because 
that is what Slytherin is always mindful of, the opportunity, the 
points, the prime objective. This is not to say the rules should not 
be followed, but rather that making this dogmatic consistency the 
ultimate yardstick of virtue can only benefit the dogmatic house. 
Hence the reason that they dominated the House Cup for seven years. 
My point is that Dumbledore set out to counterbalance this in the 
end of PS/SS. He recognised Slytherins efforts, a recognition of 
their clear ability to thrive in the previous dogmatic environment, 
and then he set out to change that environment, to balance it with 
the admission of a new set of virtues in to the equation. 


Magpie:
> And I'm sure every single student mutters about how students in 
> other houses don't get points taken away as much as their house 
> does. Gryffindor always sees itself as the most virtuous and the 
> most victimized by unfair calls.  That's not an objective 
> observation.

Valky:
We will have to agree to disagree here, because I most unequivocally 
believe that Slytherins in PS/SS victimised Gryffindors and enjoyed 
the advantage of the oppression of Gryffindor Virtues quite happily. 

Valky