CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[kiricat4001]

No: HPFGUIDX 146565

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" 
<sherriola at e...> wrote:
 
> Discussion questions
 
 
> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the 
last book,
> OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is.  She constantly breaks 
things or
> trips over things.  It becomes comic relief throughout that book.  
But here
> we see her casually leaping off a moving train.  What did you 
think of this?
> We learn later that Tonks has lost her metamorphmagus ability.  Do 
you think
> her ability to change her appearance could be part of why she is 
clumsy? Is
> it possible that she isn't very well coordinated because of her
> metamorphing?  Will she be clumsy again now that she has her 
ability back at
> the end of HBP?  Or is there something more sinister going on 
here?  Is this
> really Tonks?  

Marianne:
I hadn't thought about Tonks's notable lack of clumsiness in jumping 
off the moving train.  It does seem to be a weird change in her, 
even if we put it down to the effects of her unrequited love for 
Remus. I suppose it can be read as just another little clue that all 
is not right with Tonks, but, OTOH, it seems like a strange symptom 
to exhibit.  


> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for 
Sirius.
> What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts about Tonks 
and his
> inability to talk to her about Sirius?  Does this show his grief 
to you?

Marianne:
Yes, I think Harry is dealing with his grief as best he can. It 
might not be the best way - to try to close people off from his 
feelings, to not talk about Sirius, to avoid taking the openings his 
friends give him to say something, to avoid even the simplest vocal 
acknowledgment to others, like Tonks, who may also be grieving.  
But, I think this is completely in character for Harry.  But, it 
still rankles with me that no adult, other than DD, has said 
anything to Harry about it.  

 
> 
> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and 
we're led
> to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus.  But here 
at this
> point, we don't know any of that yet.  Why do you think Snape made 
these
> comments about her patronus?  He hasn't seemed to have any 
particular
> feelings one way or the other about Tonks previously; in fact, did 
we ever
> see them interact before?  Why does he say that her patronus is 
weak?  What
> do you think about the whole significance of the changing 
patronus?  Does it
> foreshadow events yet to come, or are there implications about 
Lupin in
> Snape's comments?  

Marianne:
I think there has to be more significance to a patronus changing 
that simply Tonks's misery.  I believe we've been introduced to it 
now because it will come up again with a different character in Book 
7.  As far as Snape's "weak" comment went, yes, I think this is a 
barb at her because he suspects the change has something to do with 
Lupin.  I notice he also called her Nymphadora, which he must know 
she dislikes.  Perhaps that was another veiled way to let her know 
that he's aware of the Lupin link of her patronus because Remus also 
calls her Nymphadora. 

We all know how Snape despises letting his softer emotions show, how 
people can betray themselves when they wear their emotions on their 
sleeves. Tonks' patronus change shows that she is under some sort of 
emotional distress, thus she is weak in Snape's eyes and her 
weakness is exposed by the shape of the new patronus.
 
> 7.  Harry believes that the reason Sirius rushed off to the 
ministry was because
> of Snape's taunts.  Whatever you think of that belief, why do you 
think
> Harry would so easily believe that Sirius would only rush off 
because he was
> taunted?  Does Harry have difficulty believing that Sirius could 
have rushed
> to his rescue out of love for him and a desire to save him, as he 
could not
> save James and Lily?  Does Harry have a problem believing that 
people could
> love him enough to risk their lives?

Marianne:

I think we've already been told in this chapter that Harry has 
become more aware of the part he played in setting in motion the 
events that led to Sirius's death as evidenced by the following with 
regards to Tonks:
"...it was no more her fault than anyone else's (and much less than 
his)..."

I don't think Harry believes that Sirius rushed off *solely* because 
Snape shot his mouth off. But, continuing to believe (or want to 
believe) that this was a major factor allows Harry to continue to 
blame Snape, which "felt satisfying" and also because, as JKR tells 
us, Harry knows Snape is not sorry Sirius is dead.  

Actually, Snape could have thrown the Harry-Snape dynamic into a 
real spin had he taken a few moments at the end of OoP, or even here 
at the beginning of HBP and said "Potter, you know Black and I 
couldn't stand each other, but you have my sympathies over your 
loss."  Snape would have neatly undercut Harry's unmitigated view of 
him as a heartless bastard. He wouldn't have had to say he was sorry 
Sirius was dead because both he and Harry know that's not true. But, 
by acknowledging *Harry's* loss, he would have, at the very least, 
confused Harry and maybe given Harry a push towards putting Snape's 
role in all of this in a different light.
 
> 8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months.  It's 
come up once
> or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see that Harry's face 
was
> covered in blood?  He did have a lantern with him, and when they 
entered the
> school there was a lot of light.  If he did see it, why didn't he 
comment or
> why didn't he realize that Harry had not been late on purpose, that
> something must have happened to Harry on the way?  If you believe 
he didn't
> see it, why not, how could he not see it?  With all the extra 
security and
> all that going on in the wizarding world, why didn't he ask Harry 
how his
> face got bloodied?  Were his snarky comments to Harry on the walk 
up to the
> castle just the usual routine, done to keep up appearances, or 
does he still
> seriously hate him so much?

Marianne:
The question could also be asked why didn't Tonks make mention, 
after she fixed Harry's  nose, that he was still a bloody mess? For 
that matter, why didn't she open the Hogwars gates? Why wait until 
the person carrying the lantern got there to unlock the gates? 

But, for Snape's part, it is a curious oversight. I suppose Snape 
couldn't care less. Harry is obviously not seriously hurt, and if 
anyone were to take Snape to task for not investigating further, he 
could always say that he assumed there was no problem because Tonks 
didn't tell him there was anything to worry about.  


 
> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different 
situations with
> Ron, both that jumped out at me in different ways.  First in the
> conversation with nearly Headless Nick, was this meant to be comic 
relief,
> or showing Ron's insensitivity?  Later, as Harry tells Ron the 
story of what
> happened on the train, he believes Ron shows his friendship by not 
laughing.
> Does this show anything about Ron's character, or is this just 
normal for
> any kid his age?

Marianne:
Well, technically Ron is telling the truth. NHN is dead, so his 
protestations on keeping silent to the death about Harry is a bit 
over the top.  I supposed he could have been a little more tactful.  
But, I can't help contrasting this with Snape's "I see no 
difference" comment regarding Hermione's teeth in GoF. At least Ron 
was speaking the truth. 

The bit about Ron's not laughing comes after DD's somewhat solemn 
speech about dangerous times, Vmort, ect. so perhaps the boys mood 
was already more somber than usual.  But, has Ron ever laughed at 
Harry when Harry's been hurt by someone, especially Draco?  I can't 
recall right now that he's ever made light of the bad things that 
have happened to Harry, so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't 
have laughed.  
  
 
 
> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it 
means
> Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's comment 
about
> keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you? 

Marianne:
Not in the least. I know I'm guilty of making similar tasteless 
remarks about people. And this is not long after Harry has had his 
first encounter of the school year with Snape, so the fact that he's 
nasty about him is not all that surprising to me. 
 

> 16.  Do you think Dumbledore's specific mentioning of not 
wandering after
> bedtime is aimed at the trio in particular?

Marianne:
Hadn't thought of it before, but maybe so.  Espcially in light of DD 
telling Harry to keep his cloak with him. Or are those things 
somewhat contradictory - if Harry's always where he's supposed to be 
at any given time, why would he need to conceal himself?  

The other thing that struck me in reading over this chapter is also 
in DD's speech, where he instructs the students to tell one of the 
staff if they notice anything strange or suspicious.  Harry noticed 
strange, suspicious things about Draco throughour the year, and not 
one, not friends or adults, took him seriously.


> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco 
saying on the
> train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about his 
suspicions
> of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to anything?  

Marianne:
Because Ron has only seen Draco as a school-boy rival who is usually 
bested by Harry and Co.?  

Marianne, who enjoyed Sherry's questions