CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[kmalone1127]

No: HPFGUIDX 146586

Sherry <sherriola at e...> wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, 
> Chapter 8, Snape Victorious
> <snip summary>
> 
> Discussion questions
> 
> 1.  This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book, 
> though it becomes important later as we know.  Did it catch 
> you at all at this point, or did you just pass over it as you 
> wondered how he'd get out of this pickle?

This is my first time to respond to a chapter discussion so I'll 
give it my best shot.

#1. This ties in with my impressions of Harry's actions in 
general. On my first read I thought that his actions were very 
reckless and yet , at the same time, I have done things like that 
in the past. I knew he would be caught (as I was) and I rather 
enjoyed the interaction between Draco and Harry. Now to my point, 
when he tries nonverbal spells I thought that it was about time, 
so it does not come as a surprise when later he begins learning 
to cast nonverbally. It looked to me to be a desperate attempt in 
a hopeless situation. I have however, learned never to just 'pass 
over' anything in Rowling's writings.

> 2.  Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound 
> of panic, people wondering what had happened to him.  He has 
> always hated his celebrity, but in this situation, it might 
> have helped.  Later in the chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor 
> table and feeling embarrassed, he hopes the students will just 
> assume he was off doing something heroic.  How do you feel about 
> his thoughts in this situation?  Does it seem inconsistent, 
> practical, or natural to you?

#2. I feel that it was a natural response. He does not want 
people to know of an embarrassing moment and hopes that people 
will think the best of him in their ignorance. Besides, he does 
not want to give Malfoy more reason to insult him in front of 
everyone. As much as Harry is used to being insulted, it is still 
not something one would want to invite.

> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the 
> last book, OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is.  She 
> constantly breaks things or trips over things.  It becomes comic 
> relief throughout that book. But here we see her casually 
> leaping off a moving train.  What did you think of this? We 
> learn later that Tonks has lost her metamorphmagus ability.  Do
> you think her ability to change her appearance could be part of 
> why she is clumsy? Is it possible that she isn't very well 
> coordinated because of her metamorphing?  Will she be clumsy 
> again now that she has her ability back at the end of HBP?  Or 
> is there something more sinister going on here? Is this really 
> Tonks?  

#3. I found through out the book Tonks just seemed to "be there". 
She showed no emotion until the end, it was as if she just didn't
care. Preveously, she had a lot of things going on. Her attention
was divided most of the time and that may have had a part in her
clumsiness. Now, (for whatever reason) all she really has on her 
mind is the death of her cousin and the "business" with Lupin. 
That is all she is really thinking about and it makes her, in a 
weird way, more focused. This can tie in to her morphing, in that 
if the clumsiness IS related to it, then her loss of it because 
of depression would also make her less likely to be clumsy, if 
you follow me.

> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving 
> for Sirius. What do you think of this scene, with Harry's 
> thoughts about Tonks and his inability to talk to her about 
> Sirius?  Does this show his grief to you?

#4. It shows to me Harry's inability to handle painful subjects. 
Remember the "Cho Incident". Cedric was painful subject for Harry 
as well as Cho and did all he could to avoid it. We all remeber 
the results. With Tonks, Harry thinks she is upset over Sirius 
(and she may well be) which is painful for him as well, and does 
not want to upset her even more. He just doesn't know what to say.

> 5.  I just noticed this when working on this chapter and 
> actually reading it in braille instead of hearing audio where I 
> can't tell how a sentence is punctuated.  Snape tells Tonks that 
> Harry is 
> 
> "quite--ah--safe in my hands."  
> 
> Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done 
> for emphasis, to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or 
> for Tonks?  Just curious about how this was written.  Any 
> thoughts?

#5. I took this as Snape being Snape. I will not get into the
debates over Snape's allegeance. I think he said it mostly for 
Harry, letting him know that he (Snape) is most displeased with 
his actions, as well as hinting at punishment to come.

> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf,
> and we're led to suspect it has changed because of her love for 
> Remus.  But here at this point, we don't know any of that yet.  
> Why do you think Snape made these comments about her patronus?  
> He hasn't seemed to have any particular feelings one way or the 
> other about Tonks previously; in fact, did we ever see them 
> interact before?  Why does he say that her patronus is weak? 
> What do you think about the whole significance of the changing 
> patronus? Does it foreshadow events yet to come, or are there 
> implications about Lupin in Snape's comments?  

#6. I'll be honest and say that I originally thought it had 
turned into Sirius. When we found out it is Lupin my initial 
thoughts on Snape's response didn't change. Snape hated Sirius 
and Lupin. Remember that Snape thought Lupin was in on the joke 
that would have killed him. Snape also prides himself on being 
in control of his emotions and looks down his nose at people who 
wear their hearts on their sleeves. When he sees Tonks' new 
Patronus he sees her as one of those "weak" people. Not the least 
that her Patronus is now in the form of one of the people he 
hates.

> 7.  We've discussed Harry's hatred of Snape over Sirius death 
> many times in the past, and I want to go in a different 
> direction with this question. Harry believes that the reason 
> Sirius rushed off to the ministry was because of Snape's taunts.  
> Whatever you think of that belief, why do you think Harry would 
> so easily believe that Sirius would only rush off because he was
> taunted?  Does Harry have difficulty believing that Sirius could
> have rushed to his rescue out of love for him and a desire to 
> save him, as he could not save James and Lily?  Does Harry have 
> a problem believing that people could love him enough to risk 
> their lives?

#7. I could go on and on about this but I don't think this is the
post to do it. Boiled down, my oppinion is that Harry wants to 
hate Snape. Deep down I think he may have accepted his 
responsibility for Sirius' death, but as he stated in the book, 
it was more satisfying to blame Snape. This ties in with his 
trouble handling painful subjects, he does not want to think about 
it and so projects his anger (perhaps of himself) onto Snape. As I 
said, I could go on and on, but this was my first impression.

> 8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months.  It's 
> come up once or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see 
> that Harry's face was covered in blood?  He did have a lantern 
> with him, and when they entered the school there was a lot of 
> light.  If he did see it, why didn't he comment or why didn't 
> he realize that Harry had not been late on purpose, that
> something must have happened to Harry on the way?  If you 
> believe he didn't see it, why not, how could he not see it?  
> With all the extra security and all that going on in the 
> wizarding world, why didn't he ask Harry how his face got 
> bloodied?  Were his snarky comments to Harry on the walk up to 
> the castle just the usual routine, done to keep up appearances, 
> or does he still seriously hate him so much?

#8. Tonks sent a message up to the castle for Hagrid. We don't
really know how one puts a message in a Patronus or how long of a
message one can send with it, or even how a Patronus delivers the
message. My impression was that Tonks sent a message explaining 
what had happened. Snape got the message so he was not surprised 
to see the blood. As to his comments, Snape has never lost an 
oppourtunity to insult Harry and this was too good to pass up. I 
think that Snape genuinely dislikes Harry (for whatever reasons) 
and his comments reflect that.

> 9.  Hermione tells Harry that Hagrid was only a few minutes 
> late, yet Snape had said that Tonks' message to Hagrid couldn't 
> reach him, because Hagrid was late, and that was why, he, Snape, 
> had taken the message instead.  Was this true?  Do you think 
> Snape intercepted the patronus message before it could reach 
> its intended recipient? <snip> 

#9. I think that Hagrid was not there, and Snape was or was 
passing by and took it instead. Nothing more sinister than that.

> 10.  Is there any significance to the fact that Trelawney is at 
> the start of term feast?  Is this only the second time we've 
> seen her at the feast?

#10. I don't think that she has been at any starting feast before
this, the only other time she came down was at Christmas in the 
third book. As we know, Trelawney is an important back story 
character but as to any significance, well, she is upset over 
Firenze and may have been there to talk to DD about him but I'm 
not really sure. DD could have asked her to be there as well. One 
can only speculate.

> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different
> situations with Ron, both that jumped out at me in different 
> ways.  First in the conversation with nearly Headless Nick, was 
> this meant to be comic relief, or showing Ron's insensitivity?  
> Later, as Harry tells Ron the story of what happened on the 
> train, he believes Ron shows his friendship by not laughing.
> Does this show anything about Ron's character, or is this just
> normal for any kid his age?

#11. Ron has never been the most sensitive person. I don't think 
he has had one conversation with Nick without insulting him
(inadvertenly, I'm sure), but at the same time he is very loyal to 
his friends. And besides, why would Ron laugh at Harry's nose 
being broken? If he had, it would have been out of character and 
just plain mean, I think.

> 12.  Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, 
> and he is repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later. 
> He never does.  Will the exact details of what happened to the 
> hand be important later, either in what Harry has to do or in 
> understanding what happened on the tower?

#12. This is interesting. I don't think DD told him because it 
meant he was dying. There is a very good theory about this at
HogwartsProfessor.com. It is too long to summarize here but it is
worth reading. I think he might have told Harry if circumstances 
had been different at the end of the book.

> 13.  Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise 
> value, Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher.  How 
> did you react when you read Dumbledore's announcement of 
> Slughorn as potions master? Were you shocked?  Did you expect 
> it at all?  When Harry and Dumbledore were going to meet 
> Slughorn, did you think it was to hire him for DADA?

#13. I did think that he was for DADA. It was an interesting
surprise, but in retrospect makes sense. If Snape had continued 
as Potions Master then Harry would not have been in N.E.W.T.s 
Potions, which would have disqualified him for Auror. In a 
literary and symbolic sense Harry had to take the classes for 
Auror, as he is the only thing standing between Voldemort and the 
world.

> 14.  I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the
> books where it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust 
> Snape and that is why he has never given him the DADA post 
> before.  Is this a case of rumor and gossip becoming fact over 
> time?  Why indeed did Dumbledore give or not give Snape the job?  
> Has Snape really wanted it all these years?  Did you think about 
> the DADA curse when you heard that Snape had the position? Was 
> Harry correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face? 
> He hates him so much, that every expression must be well known 
> to him, yet his hatred may not make him a very reliable judge of 
> such things.  

#14. This one also ties in to the theory at HogwartsProfessor.com. 
We don't know if Snape knew about the curse but it would stand to
reason that he didn't if he really did want the job. I do think that
DD did not let him have it because of the curse, Snape was too
valuable to lose after only one year. As to the look of triumph on
Snape, he may not have known about the curse until later that year
(i.e. the argument with DD) or DD may never have told him.

> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least 
> it means Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's 
> comment about keeping his fingers crossed for another death 
> disturb you? 

#15. Considering the past five years Harry's assurance that Snape
would be gone after this year is only logical. But I do not think 
he really meant it when he said that he was hoping for another 
death. It is just not in Harry's character to truly wish death on 
anyone. I took it as Harry simply stating how much he dislikes 
Snape. Remember when Harry first found out about the prophecy and 
that his life must "include, or end in, murder." He was very 
depressed about it. And when he used the sectumsempra curse on 
Malfoy he was horrified. Only at the end of the book does Harry 
seem to wish death for Snape. But even his comment about it being 
so much the worse for Snape if he met him again only implies a 
death for Snape, Harry never actually says he will kill him. Of 
course, I may be splitting hairs here I just don't think Harry has 
it in him to WANT to kill someone.

> 16.  Do you think Dumbledore's specific mentioning of not 
> wandering after bedtime is aimed at the trio in particular?

#16. More at Harry. I think DD knows that no security is absolute
and does not want Harry to risk himself.

> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco 
> saying on the train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's 
> circle about his suspicions of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe 
> that Draco is up to anything?  

#17. Both Harry and Draco have cried wolf many times. Ron has 
never had any trouble believing the worst of Draco before, but 
one can only be wrong so many times. Fool me once, shame on you. 
Fool me twice, shame on me. That kind of thing. Also, we hear 
about how unhealthy it is for one to have obsessive love, the 
same could be said about obsessive mistrust (or hate). While it 
turned out that Harry was right, to an extent, the fact that 
Harry would not let it go was probably very off-putting to his 
two best friends.

Well, that's my two cents. Hope it wasn't too long or incoherent.

- kmalone1127