CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 146599

CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter
8, Snape Victorious
<snipping the summary, which I responded to in another post>

> 1.  This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book,
though it becomes important later as we know.  Did it catch you at all
at this point, or did you just pass over it as you wondered how he'd
get out of this pickle?

Carol:
I did catch it because I've been paying attention to Snape's nonverbal
spells for quite awhile (vanishing spilled potions, writing potions on
the blackboard with a flick of a wand, and, in "Spinner's End," what I
take to be an Impervius Charm with an added kick that made Wormtail
squeal like the rat he is and scurry upstairs). I'm not sure what I
thought when I read that particular reference, but I've thought for
some time that easily casting nonverbal spells marks a person as a
talented wizard. And I think now that it's a skill Harry needs to work
on. (Snape thinks so, too!)
> 
> 
> 2.  Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound of
panic, people wondering what had happened to him. <snip>  Later in the
> chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor table and feeling embarrassed,
he hopes the students will just assume he was off doing something
heroic.  How do you feel about his thoughts in this situation?  Does
it seem inconsistent, practical, or natural to you?

Carol:
Perfectly natural. Harry wants to be liked for himself (to be "just
Harry, as I think he says in SS/PS), but he's also used to being
thought of as a celebrity, and he naturally wants people to be
concerned that he's missing (not to mention that he desperately wants
to be found). On the other hand, he's done something really stupid,
and he certainly doesn't want everyone to know that he carelessly
placed himself in such a humiliating position--the antithesis of a
heroic victory, really.
> 
> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the last
book, OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is. <snip> But here
> we see her casually leaping off a moving train.  What did you think
of this? We learn later that Tonks has lost her metamorphmagus
ability.  Do you think her ability to change her appearance could be
part of why she is clumsy? Is it possible that she isn't very well
coordinated because of her metamorphing?  Will she be clumsy again now
that she has her ability back at the end of HBP?  Or is there
something more sinister going on here?  Is this really Tonks?  

Carol:
I don't think there's a connection between clumsiness and
metamorphing. We don't see a connection between clumsiness and
animorphing, and that has to be a more difficult transition than
between two human forms. Surely she'd be most comfortable in her own
body. Ginny is also clumsy when she has a crush on Harry in CoS; maybe
Tonks, even though she's in her early twenties, has a similar reaction
to Lupin in OoP. (Maybe it's a subconscious wish to get his attention
and make him notice her.) I don't know what to make of the Tonks/Lupin
subplot. I was glad to see Tonks so competent, jumping from trains and
finding Harry, and fixing his nose. In OoP, she seemded like a
caricature. Here she at least seems human. But if it weren't for
"Wotcher, Harry," she would seem like a completely different person in
HBP. I don't think there's anything sinister going on here, only an
attempt by JKR to set up the changed Patronus concept for Book 7 (and
maybe another variation on the theme that unrequited love has
debilitating effects. At least Tonks didn't turn into a Squib.
> 
> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for
Sirius. What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts about
Tonks and his inability to talk to her about Sirius?  Does this show
his grief to you?

Carol:
I thought that his grief was handled realistically. He doesn't want to
talk about it any more than he wanted to talk about Cedric in OoP. In
both cases, he at least partially blames himself, and he hasn't been
taught to express personal feelings in words. I also think that JKR
dealt with Harry's still unhealed grief for Sirius in the conversation
with DD in the broom shed. Any more would be overkill (I'm sorry for
the word choice; I can't think of a synonym right now). I think Sirius
Black's death will prove important in Book 7, but for now its chief
effect is to intensify Harry's hatred of Snape so that the revelation
of Snape as eavesdropper and later the AK on the tower will make the
hatred seem insurmountable. (We're building to a climax here, but the
climax will be followed by a denouement.)
> 
> 5. <snip> Snape tells Tonks that Harry is  "quite--ah--safe in my
hands."  Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just
done for emphasis, to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or for
Tonks?  Just curious about how this was written.  Any thoughts?

Carol:
I've been struggling to find some other word that would fit the
sentence. "Safe" seems like the obvious word, so Snape's hesitation
*is* very noticeable and at the same time, Snapily mysterious. I don't
think he nearly revealed some sinister attention (he certainly isn't
planning to Crucio or kill or kidnap Harry), so why have to search for
the word "safe"? (Snape is too young to be suffering from
late-middle-aged forgetfulness like me!) Maybe he almost said "secure"
or "protected," but thought those words would give away his role as
Harry's protector, not to Tonks, but to Harry? Good question, Sherry,
and I don't have an answer. 
> 
> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and
we're led to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus. 
But here at this point, we don't know any of that yet.  Why do you
think Snape made these comments about her patronus?  He hasn't seemed
to have any particular feelings one way or the other about Tonks
previously; in fact, did we ever see them interact before? Why does he
say that her patronus is weak?  What do you think about the whole
significance of the changing patronus?  Does it foreshadow events yet
to come, or are there implications about Lupin in Snape's comments?  

Carol:
She's one of the people who hears his report in OoP, and everyone
(except Sirius Black) seems to be excited about it. But she's also one
of the few who stays behind instead of leaving with him. (She'd rather
be with Remus?) But, as Mariane said, it's noticeable that he calls
her by her first name. IIRC, the only other people we've seen him on
first-name terms with are Karkaroff and the Black sisters. But I don't
think we're supposed to assume a degree of intimacy here; I agree with
Mariane that he knows Tonks hates her first name and is doing it to
annoy her. But why he would want to annoy another Order member is
unclear; maybe it's for Harry's benefit. Tonks certainly seems
surprised, which would indicate that he's not usually so obnoxious
toward her. As for the comment about her Patronus being "weak," I
think it's a veiled comment on Lupin and a hint to the reader that the
Patronus reflects Lupin rather than Black, but aside from letting the
reader know that Patronuses can change, definitely setting us up for a
 changed Patronus in Book 7 IMO, I don't know what the implications
are. Maybe none--just Snape being nasty and a bit of foreshadowing. Or
maybe Lupin *is* weak, and it's a warning.

> 
> 7.  We've discussed Harry's hatred of Snape over Sirius death many
times in the past, and I want to go in a different direction with this
question. Harry believes that the reason Sirius rushed off to the
ministry was because of Snape's taunts.  Whatever you think of that
belief, why do you think Harry would so easily believe that Sirius
would only rush off because he was taunted?  Does Harry have
difficulty believing that Sirius could have rushed to his rescue out
of love for him and a desire to save him, as he could not save James
and Lily?  Does Harry have a problem believing that people could
> love him enough to risk their lives?

Carol:
I think you've answered your own question. It ties in with feeling
embarrassed about wanting people to panic over his safety. Harry
thinks that the people who value him do so because he has a special
destiny and not because of the person he would be if the events at GH
had never happened. He wasn't loved by the Dursleys, and Aunt Petunia
and Dudley are his blood relatives. I think that's why he cares so
much about Ron. Sure, Ron feels envious on occasion and they've had
some serious quarrels, but most of the time, he and Ron are just kids
together, making up phony predictions for Divination and talking
Quidditch. To return to Sirius Black, his godfather yet almost a
stranger, Harry already felt guilty because Black had returned to
England for him in GoF: he could have remained in his tropical
paradise instead of living in that cave. And Harry may secretly agree
with Hermione and Molly that Black sees him as James rather than
himself. So lots of complicated feelings there, lots of reasons for
doubting that Sirius risked his life for Harry's sake, lots of reasons
for placing the blame on Snape instead.


> 8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months.  It's come
up once or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see that Harry's
face was covered in blood?  He did have a lantern with him, and when
they entered the school there was a lot of light.  If he did see it,
why didn't he comment or why didn't he realize that Harry had not been
late on purpose, that something must have happened to Harry on the
way?  <snip> Were his snarky comments to Harry on the walk up to the
> castle just the usual routine, done to keep up appearances, or does
he still seriously hate him so much?

Carol:
First, I'm sure that he did see the blood and that he also noticed
immediately that it was dried, that Harry's nose was uninjured, and
that Harry was behaving normally (for Harry). No reason for concern
that he was still hurt; Snape is always sending students to the
hospital wing or ordering someone to escort them there if they need
Madam Pomfrey's help. And while he may have overheard Draco as he
passed the Slytherin table, I think it's more likely that he saw Draco
enacting the nose-smashing incident and put two and two together as
only Snape can. I think his taunts were intended to get a reaction out
of Harry, to get him to defend himself and blame Draco. And if Draco
had been the one with the bloody face, the tactic would have worked.
But in Harry's case, the needling only made him more determined to say
nothing. As for not cleaning up Harry's face, the question for me is
whay Tonks didn't do it. I think Snape left it as is so that
*Dumbledore* would see Harry's face and question Snape about it later.
How much Snape actually deduced and whether he can actually sense
Harry's thoughts without the eye contact normally required for
Legilimency, I don't know. Maybe the invisibility cloak is just
Snape's knowing Harry's chief method of keeping out of trouble. Maybe
it's something more. But that Snape was either gathering information
or trying to do so, I have no doubt.
> 
> 9.  Hermione tells Harry that Hagrid was only a few minutes late,
yet Snape had said that Tonks' message to Hagrid couldn't reach him,
because Hagrid was late, and that was why, he, Snape, had taken the
message instead.  Was this true?  Do you think Snape intercepted the
patronus message before it could reach its intended recipient?  How
long do Patronuses take to arrive with a message?  Did it arrive when
Hagrid was not there? Did Snape intercept the message because he was
supposed to protect Harry, or just to have another golden opportunity
to give him a bad time?

Carol:
Tonks said that she sent her Patronus to the school and expected
Hagrid to receive it, but I'm sure that if she had specifically
intended it for Hagrid, it would have found him. Instead, it delivered
its message to the first Order member it encountered in the school,
quite possibly standing where Tonks expected Hagrid to be. I don't
think that Snape "intercepted" a message specifically intended for
another recipient, or that he could have done so any more than Harry
could intercept a Howler intended for Petunia. Owls can be
intercepted, but I don't think that purely magical messages can be. So
I think that Snape was telling the truth. If he also saw a "golden
opportunity" to give Harry a bad time, that was a side benefit.
(That's certainly Harry's interpretation and quite possibly what Snape
wants Harry to think, but I think Snape wanted to find out for himself
exactly what happened--and, of course, provide Harry with an escort to
the school just in case there was actual danger.
> 
> 10.  Is there any significance to the fact that Trelawney is at the
start of term feast?  Is this only the second time we've seen her at
the feast?

Carol:
IIRC, the only other time we've seen her at a feast was at
Christmastime in PoA, at which time she was afraid to sit down because
there would be thirteen people at the table. It just occurred to me
that there are twelve possible OWLS, which means twelve subjects and
twelve teachers at Hogwarts, with Dumbledore, the headmaster, as the
thirteenth person--and the first to get up from the table (to make his
speech). (I just checked at the Lexicon to verify the number of
classes; it lists thirteen, but one of them is Flying, which is not an
OWLS subject: 
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/classes/classes.html ). Does anyone
else think that Trelawney's presence at the table is significant for
this reason (unlucky thirteen)?
> 
> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different
situations with Ron, both that jumped out at me in different ways. 
First in the conversation with nearly Headless Nick, was this meant to
be comic relief, or showing Ron's insensitivity?  Later, as Harry
tells Ron the story of what happened on the train, he believes Ron
shows his friendship by not laughing. Does this show anything about
Ron's character, or is this just normal for any kid his age?

Carol:
Good old Ron. Sensitivity is not a notable trait among
sixteen-year-old boys, and NHN's remark really was a bit over the top.
In fact, my reaction was to wonder about his sincerity. *Would* he
"die" for Harry? *Does* he keep Harry's secrets? He seems a bit full
of himself to me. As for Ron not laughing, of course he wouldn't, but
the Slytherins had done so. Since Ron hates Draco (perhaps more than
Harry does), he would never have laughed, however much he might laugh
when Draco is the victim of a mixture of hexes on the Hogwarts
Express. It reminds me of the time when Ron was sneaking out to
practice on his broom for Quidditch and Ron thought Harry would laugh
at *him.* Just boys slightly embarrassed about their particular
situation and not quite sure their best mate will understand. They
should stop underestimating each other.
>  
> 12.  Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, and he
is repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later.  He never
does.  Will the exact details of what happened to the hand be
important later, either in what Harry has to do or in understanding
what happened on the tower?

Carol:
I certainly hope so. But unless Aberforth Dumbledore happened to be
present when Snape stopped the curse from killing his brother Albus,
the only person who knows what happened is Snape himself. Did he know
it was a Horcrux? Did he only slow DD's death, not cure him? (I think
we do know why he couldn't save the hand: it was an "old curse"
without a cure. I suspect the potion in the cave was similar; no
antidote for the poison. And, yes, anything we can learn about
Dumbledore and Snape relates to the two great questions: Was DD
justified in trusting Snape and what really happened on the tower?
(See my previous post for new evidence of possible mental telepathy
between them.)
> 
> 13.  Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise
value, Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher.  How did you
react when you read Dumbledore's announcement of Slughorn as potions
master?  Were you shocked?  Did you expect it at all?  When Harry and
Dumbledore were going to meet Slughorn, did you think it was to hire
him for DADA?

Carol:
Maybe I should have expected it, but I'm so conditioned to a new and
unknown DADA teacher in every book that I was as shocked as Harry. But
my reaction was different from his. He didn't want Snape as DADA
teacher because he didn't want to take classes with him. I didn't want
him subjected to the "jinx" because, as Harry said, it meant that
Snape wouldn't be at Hogwarts the next year. Good news from Harry's
standpoint; bad news from mine--especially with that ominous UV Snape
had just taken. I thought he was dooming himself to death by teaching
the course. And maybe he was. . . .
> 
> 14.  I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the
books where it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust Snape
and that is why he has never given him the DADA post before.  Is this
a case of rumor and gossip becoming fact over time?

Carol:
You're right. There's no such passage. In fact, the evidence is all to
the contrary: DD did trust Snape. The only thing we have is Snape's
insinuation to Bellatrix that DD thought the DADA course might cause
Snape to revert to his own ways. But I'm pretty sure that Snape knew
perfectly well that he would be teaching the DADA course that year. He
just didn't want Bella--and perhaps Voldemort--to know. 

Sherry:  
Why indeed did Dumbledore give or not give Snape the job?  Has Snape
really wanted it all these years?  Did you think about the DADA curse
when you heard that Snape had the position?

Carol:
Somewhere I have a whole post on this question. If the students
suspected that the course was jinxed, Snape certainly did. After all,
he'd been teaching at Hogwarts for fifteen years ("sixteen" in
"Spinner's End" is a Flint) and he had seen what happened to all his
predecessors. He even worked, in some instances, to expose their
inadequacies or their evil nature. Whatever Snape may be, he's not a
fool, and he would not have been unaware that the supposed jinx had
sometimes deadly consequences. I imagine tht DD told him before he
accepted the position that it had been cursed by Voldemort. I think DD
withheld it from him all these years, even allowing Umbridge to teach
rather than Snape in OoP, because he was saving Snape for an
emergency. At the beginning of HBP, Snape is not only the most
talented wizard available to teach DADA, he's the only one. And DD
really needs his expertise in DADA and the Dark Arts, not in Potions.
In the past, he has made potions, notably Veritaserum and Wolfsbane
Potion, as part of his duties as Potions Master. This year, DD needs
him to break curses and otherwise fight the Dark Arts. There's no one
else he can count on to do this, so he needs Snape in the DADA
position. (note that it was Lockhart's job, not Snape's to go after
the monster in the Chamber of Secrets.) And of course, there's the
matter of Slughorn, whom DD also needs at Hogwarts (though not so
desperately, IMO) and who certainly can't be prevailed upon to teach
DADA but can take Snape's old position (and serve as HOH when the DADA
curse inevitably takes Snape's job and possibly his life). And, of
course, DD needs a competent teacher in the DADA position, and Snape
knows the subject in detail, just as he knows potions. We see the
evidence in his detailed DADA OWL in OoP, in his gift for nonverbal
spells, in his duelling skills, in his ability to invent spells. The
time has come. IMO, DD has wanted Severus Snape with him all these
years, kept him at his side teaching another subject at which he
excels, but now, at last, he has to sacrifice him. He has to give him
the DADA position. And Snape, too, knows that he has no choice. The
time has come.

Sherry:
Was Harry correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face? 
He hates him so much, that every expression must be well known to him,
yet his hatred may not make him a very reliable judge of such things.

Carol:
His hatred blinds him (in my view). He is, I am certain, wholly
mistaken in Snape. This look, like the look of revulsion and hatred in
"The Lightning-Struck Tower," means something altogether different
that Harry thinks it means. (But of course, I could be wrong.)
> 
> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it
means Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's comment
about keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you?

Carol:
I hoped that he was wrong, of course, but it would have disturbed me
more if Harry had a history of being right about Snape. The DADA
"jinx" did disturb me, of course, more so when I learned that it was a
real curse placed by LV himself. And I've been disturbed by Harry's
attitude, not only toward Snape but toward dark curses and vengeance,
for two books now. He has to get past those emotions and temptations
or he'll turn into another Tom Riddle and there will be no chance of
defeating LV through Love or a pure soul. (Kneasy, where are you?) But
I also believe that "he would never forgive Snape. Never" (OoP) is a
perfect example of unreliable narration waiting to be belied by the
facts of the story.
> 
> <skip 16 because I can't remember--the warning could be aimed at Draco?>
> 
> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco saying
on the train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about
his suspicions of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to
anything?  

Carol:
Their suspicions were wrong in CoS, for one. fo another, draco has
always been just a schoolyard bully, trying to get Hagrid fired and
passing distorted information to Rita Skeeter, but he has never seemed
like a real threat. I think Ron underestimates the effect on Draco of
his idolized father's arrest. Draco now has a very real grudge against
Harry that goes far beyond his choosing the "wrong" side and
associating with "Mudbloods" and "blood traitors." It never occurs to
Ron that Draco would be sufficiently incensed, and sufficiently
deluded, to actually join the Death Eaters, or that Voldemort would
really find a use for a sixteen-year-old boy. Sure, Draco is a snob, a
bully, a bigot, a cheater (in Quidditch), but a Death Eater? Nah, he's
just a scummy kid. Or so Ron would think.
> 
> 
> Sherry
> Who apologizes for the length but who didn't realize how much there
was in this chapter when she chose it.  Thanks for letting me lead a
chapter!  This was so fun!

Carol:
It was fun answering your questions, too. And your "comeuppance" is
the length of my answers!

Carol, thanking Sherry for her objectivity and insight into this chapter