CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[zgirnius]

No: HPFGUIDX 146600

zgirnius:
Thanks, Sherry, for a nice summary and questions! My thoughts below...


>"Sherry Gomes" <sherriola at e...> wrote:
> Discussion questions
> 
> 1.  This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book, 
though it
> becomes important later as we know.  Did it catch you at all at 
this point,
> or did you just pass over it as you wondered how he'd get out of 
this
> pickle?

I did not pay any special attention, no. But I had noticed them 
before (OotP, in the Dumbledore/Voldemort duel, which had a notable 
absence of incantations).
 
> 2.  Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound of 
panic,
> people wondering what had happened to him.  He has always hated his
> celebrity, but in this situation, it might have helped.  Later in 
the
> chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor table and feeling 
embarrassed, he
> hopes the students will just assume he was off doing something 
heroic.  How
> do you feel about his thoughts in this situation?  Does it seem
> inconsistent, practical, or natural to you?

It seemed natural. (And inconsistent-people are. Harry certainly is.)

> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the 
last book,
> OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is.  She constantly breaks 
things or
> trips over things.  It becomes comic relief throughout that book.  
But here
> we see her casually leaping off a moving train.  What did you think 
of this?
> We learn later that Tonks has lost her metamorphmagus ability.  Do 
you think
> her ability to change her appearance could be part of why she is 
clumsy? Is
> it possible that she isn't very well coordinated because of her
> metamorphing?  Will she be clumsy again now that she has her 
ability back at
> the end of HBP?  Or is there something more sinister going on 
here?  Is this
> really Tonks?  

I thought it was really Tonks. I think the idea that metamorphing 
mamkes her clumsy has some merit, and it her lack of clumsiness in 
HBP would thus be explained by the loss of her powers. But I also 
think her jumping off the train is not some sort of contradiction 
with her clumsiness. It is a very quick bit of action, and one on 
which she would naturally be concentrating.

> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for 
Sirius.
> What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts about Tonks 
and his
> inability to talk to her about Sirius?  Does this show his grief to 
you?

To some extent, yes. However, I thought his hate-filled thoughts 
about Snape later in the chapter were even more telling and 
indicative of his grief. I really liked how Harry was thinking that 
Sirius had been powerfully influenced by Snape's remarks about 
remaining safely hidden, anf the narrator's explanation "Harry clung 
to this notion, because it enabled him ot blame Snapem which felt 
satisfying, and also because he knew that if anyone was not sirry 
that Sirius was dead, it was the man now striding next to him in the 
darkness". To me this showed that the death of Sirius was still very 
painful to him and he was making himself think of less painful things 
like his previously establushed hatred of Snape as a coping mechanism.

 
> 5.  I just noticed this when working on this chapter and actually 
reading it
> in braille instead of hearing audio where I can't tell how a 
sentence is
> punctuated.  Snape tells Tonks that Harry is 
> 
> "quite--ah--safe in my hands."  
> 
> Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done for 
emphasis,
> to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or for Tonks?  Just 
curious
> about how this was written.  Any thoughts?

I noticed it, but do not have an opinion. It sounded Snapelike to me, 
for whatever reason.

> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and 
we're led
> to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus.  But here 
at this
> point, we don't know any of that yet.  Why do you think Snape made 
these
> comments about her patronus?  He hasn't seemed to have any 
particular
> feelings one way or the other about Tonks previously; in fact, did 
we ever
> see them interact before?  Why does he say that her patronus is 
weak?  What
> do you think about the whole significance of the changing 
patronus?  Does it
> foreshadow events yet to come, or are there implications about 
Lupin in
> Snape's comments?  

I assumed that yes, this was a negative comment about Lupin.

> 7.  We've discussed Harry's hatred of Snape over Sirius death many 
times in
> the past, and I want to go in a different direction with this 
question.
> Harry believes that the reason Sirius rushed off to the ministry 
was because
> of Snape's taunts.  Whatever you think of that belief, why do you 
think
> Harry would so easily believe that Sirius would only rush off 
because he was
> taunted?  Does Harry have difficulty believing that Sirius could 
have rushed
> to his rescue out of love for him and a desire to save him, as he 
could not
> save James and Lily?  Does Harry have a problem believing that 
people could
> love him enough to risk their lives?

That is an interesting observation, and I think you may have 
something here with Harry's feelings that people would not risk 
themselves for him. But I think is also has to do with grief or 
survivor guilt over the episode. Sirius went there to save HIM, 
Harry. If Harry had not been there and in danger, he would not have 
gone. I am not saying it was thus Harry's fault, but I do think Harry 
believes this, irrational though it might be. It is thus comforting 
for Harry to think that the real reason Sirius went was Snape's 
taunts. Because that has nothing to do with Harry.
> 10.  Is there any significance to the fact that Trelawney is at the 
start of
> term feast?  Is this only the second time we've seen her at the 
feast?
I don't recall when we've seen her before. But we definitely saw her 
a lot more outside of class in HBP than in other books, and I think 
this was part and parcel of that. I'm not sure why, exactly, this is. 
Perhaps she will continue to play a role in Book 7 (does Voldemort 
need to learn the Prophecy at some point, so he could make another 
Macbeth-like blinder?). Or was her role to tell Harry Snape was the 
eavesdropper, and having her around more was just to make that final 
conversation not come out of the blue?
> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different 
situations with
> Ron, both that jumped out at me in different ways.  First in the
> conversation with nearly Headless Nick, was this meant to be comic 
relief,
> or showing Ron's insensitivity?  Later, as Harry tells Ron the 
story of what
> happened on the train, he believes Ron shows his friendship by not 
laughing.
> Does this show anything about Ron's character, or is this just 
normal for
> any kid his age?
Ron is always making jokes to the ghosts about them being dead. He 
does this with Myrtle as well. I think this is just his sense of 
humor. But he is usually an excellent best friend to Harry in my 
opinion and senses when humor is not the right approach to use (as in 
tthis case).
> 12.  Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, and 
he is
> repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later.  He never 
does.  Will
> the exact details of what happened to the hand be important later, 
either in
> what Harry has to do or in understanding what happened on the tower?
They certainly could. Exactly what Snape did (or deliberately failed 
to do,as has been suggestedO in treating the injury might be 
significant. Also, if the injury was eventually fatal and Dumbledore 
was living on borrowed time, as others have suggested, this would 
come out, I imagine.
> 13.  Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise 
value,
> Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher.  How did you 
react when
> you read Dumbledore's announcement of Slughorn as potions master?  
Were you
> shocked?  Did you expect it at all?  When Harry and Dumbledore were 
going to
> meet Slughorn, did you think it was to hire him for DADA?
I did at first think it was for DADA. But first, Sluggie really did 
not give me DADA instructor vibes, and second, Dumbledore's comment 
when Harry said he would not see much of Snape anymore made me 
wonder. I was still surprised, but at the same time was an aha! 
moment.
> 14.  I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the 
books where
> it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust Snape and that 
is why he
> has never given him the DADA post before.  Is this a case of rumor 
and
> gossip becoming fact over time?  Why indeed did Dumbledore give or 
not give
> Snape the job?  Has Snape really wanted it all these years?  Did 
you think
> about the DADA curse when you heard that Snape had the position?  
Was Harry
> correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face?  He hates 
him so
> much, that every expression must be well known to him, yet his 
hatred may
> not make him a very reliable judge of such things.  

I too am not able to recall any point in the books where this was 
stated. Maybe Harry reads old JKR interviews (joke). I think Harry 
believes this because of his own dislike of Snape, because of what 
Sirius and Lupin have told him about Snape liking the Dark Arts, and 
because he is still influenced by the streotypical view of Slytherins.

I am convinced Dumbledore did not give him the job before because he 
did not want to lose his presence at Hogwarts. And he knew he very 
well might because of the jinx. I doubt Snape really wanted the 
position, since the jinx has been in effect since before Snape 
started at Hogwarts as a student. And Snape does not strike me as 
someone who would fail to notice the endless turnover in the DADA 
position. I did immediatelt think of the jinx when I learned Snape go 
the position. It was definitely a sinking feeling in the pit of my 
stomach moment for me (much like the end of Chapter 2). Whatever 
expression Snape had on his face that Harry saw as triumphant was, I 
think, in response to the applause of the Slytherins. 

As to why Dumbledore gave him the job, this is a question that 
greatly interests me, and I have a theory. I think that in response 
to the war starting in earnest, Dumbledore wanted to get his Death 
Eater spy into position where he can do the most good for the Order. 
And that is NOT at Hogwarts, where he has few opportunities to 
interact with Voldemort and Death Eaters. But he does not want 
Voldemort to suspect anything, at the same time. Giving Snape DADA 
gets Snape out of Hogwarts where he is free to spend more time with 
the Death Eaters, in a way that VOldemort is not likely to suspect 
(since it would be due to the actions of his own jinx). I 
specifically do not think it makes sense to give Snape the job just 
in order to hire Slughorn. Dumbledore already has two Divination 
teachers-why not two Potions teachers?
 
> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it 
means
> Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's comment 
about
> keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you? 
Yes, it did. Especially in restrospect. It illustrates that we should 
be very careful what we wish for...
> 16.  Do you think Dumbledore's specific mentioning of not wandering 
after
> bedtime is aimed at the trio in particular?
No, of course they are going to wander after bedtime...after 5 years 
of this he must be resigned to this fact! I think this just serves as 
yet another sign of the times. War, danger, etc.