Merlin-DD - Dumbledore LIVES ...or NOT

Tue Jan 17 15:36:10 UTC 2006

No: HPFGUIDX 146616

Steve <bboyminn at yahoo.com> wrote:    bboyminn:

>> When it comes to 'Dumbledore lives' theories, I can only ask 
one question ...WHY? 

What literary purpose does it serve for Dumbledore to fake his 
own death. How does that help Harry arrive at his objective? Why 
would Dumbledore abandon Harry just when Harry needs him the 
most? More so, how and why would Dumbledore choose that 
particular method to fake his how death? Certainly there are 
easier ways. <<

maria8162001:

I guess, Harry's objective was very clear from the beginning or 
rather since when he found out that Voldemort is really out to 
kill him. 

Can you suggest or do you know any other ways to fake his death 
that would not arouse suspicion from the members of the Order 
and from Voldemort and his followers? Who's better person to use 
in faking his death than Snape? What are the easier ways? Again 
without arousing suspicion.

Steve:
>> The best I can come up with, though I admit it's not too 
shabby, is that in that moment on the top of the tower, Snape 
and Dumbledore agreed that there was no way out. One way or 
another Dumbledore was going to die, either by Draco (not 
likely), by a Death Eaters (very likely) or by Snape's hand. So, 
Dumbledore sent a quick short telepathic message to Snape that 
said 'fake it'. <<

maria8162001: 

Maybe, maybe not. As I still believe that the phoenix Harry saw 
during the funeral is either Dumbledore or his patronus and 
there's only one person he's going to send his patronus who is 
not present at his funeral and I think, you can guess it too.

Steve:
>> What I am saying here is that Snape appearing to kill 
Dumbledore wasn't part of some grand plan or conspiracy. It was 
a desperate act in a desperate moment in which all other courses 
of action yielded a much worse outcome. So, Snape faked the AK 
and Dumbledore played along. Once the ruse was set into play, 
circumstances dictated that everyone continue to play along. <<

maria8162001:

I don't think it's a grand plan that everybody knows, it's just 
between Snape and Dumbledore. And I guess, there's a very good 
reason why the other members don't know about it. I know I read 
it in one of the books but I am not so certain (I will look for 
it later), that Dumbledore told Harry that during the time when 
Voldemort's power was on it's peak they cannot trust anyone, not 
even with the members of the Order of Phoenix. Could it be, that 
the time has come again? 

But nobody play along in the ruse, everybody believes that Snape 
really killed Dumbledore and they are all devastated and shocked 
by his death and by Snape's action.

Steve:   
>> So, that explains actions in the moment, but does not explain 
a long term literary strategy of continuing this ruse. What could 
be the purpose? Could it be to draw Voldemort into the open? To 
hope that Voldemort will be over filled with confidence and 
therefore act in ways that make him more vulnerable? But is that 
really a good strategy? Wouldn't it be better to keep Voldemort 
laying low in order to give Harry time to work out the Horcruxes? 
<<

maria8162001:

There you said it, to draw Voldemort in the open and make him 
reckless. Believing that Dumbledore is dead he will surely be 
more confident in doing horrible things in the open. Who he have 
to fear now that Dumbledore's dead? Ministry of magic? Come on, 
they are the typical counterpart of muggle politicians, making 
loud bangs without proper results, it's all for the show with 
them.

Steve:
>> If we are going to justify Dumbledore still being alive, we 
have to justify it within the context of the story, and his 
continuing to live has to have serve some greater purpose. He 
can't simply live because we don't want him to die. <<

maria8162001:

Could it be that the greater purpose of it, is that he's going 
to look for the horcruxes and destroy them without the people 
from the ministry of magic, tailing him around and always asking 
for his whereabouts whenever he's away from Hogwarts? To find 
and destroy the remaining horcruxes without disruption from 
anybody, especially from Voldemort, so Harry would really have 
the chance to vanguish Voldemort?

Or do you really believe that Harry can find those remaining 
horcruxes alone or with the help of Ron and Hermione? Because 
I really can't see that Harry would be able to find all those 
horcruxes (except for the locket), even with the help of 
Hermione. Not eveybody can see or distinguish the traces of 
magical protection protecting the locket. And no matter how 
smart Hermione is, she still would not be able to detect those 
magical traces.

Steve:
>> So, If Dumbledore is alive, has he learned his lesson about 
keeping Harry in the dark, will he reveal himself right away, so 
Harry is aware that he can continue to draw on Dumbledore as a 
resource? If he continues to keep Harry in the dark, and simply 
lurks around in the background, that doesn't really lend much to 
the story. <<

maria8162001:

Keeping Harry in the dark by letting him believe he's dead is 
very important if it can accomplish important things, like 
Dumbledore destroying the horcruxes. As we read in the OOTP, 
Voldemort can easily access Harry thoughts. What if now that 
Dumbledore's dead Voldemort would access Harry's thoughts again 
and see that there are very important things in Harry's thoughts 
now that Voldemort never knew before, like Harry knows about the 
horcruxes and plans to destroy them. And that the person who 
predicted the prophecy is in Hogwarts. I guess it would be in 
book 7 that Voldemort would go after Prof. Trelawney first before 
he'll go after Harry to kill him. Voldemort wanted to know the 
context of the prophecy and what better way to find out now than 
to go and get Prof. Trelawney.

Steve:
>> Also, if it happened in the moment as I described, the how 
do we explain the appearance of Dumbledore's protrait in the 
headmaster's office and how do we explain the Phoenix Lament. 
Those are a little more difficult to fake in the moment. <<

maria8162001:

We do not know about his portait in the headmaster's office. 
Did somebody or Prof. McGonagall put it there, or did it just 
appear there magically?

As to phoenix lament, I read about a phoenix song, it says, 
"Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage 
of the pure of heart and strikes fear into the hearts of the 
impure." And that is what Fawkes was doing, to ease their pain,
heal them and give them courage.

Steve:
>> It's not that I don't want Dumbledore alive. I have fanfiction 
taking place in 2015 the counts on Dumbledore being alive, but 
independant of that, for it to be true, we have to come up with 
some way of justifying it in the literary context of the story, 
and I can't see JKR going in that direction. <<

maria8162001: 

Maybe we can't see JKR going in that direction as she didn't 
want to give us direct answer till the book 7 come out. But, I 
guess, I read it somewhere in one of her interviews that we will 
learn more about Dumbledore or about what happen in book 7. I'm 
certain it would not be in the epilogues section of the book.

It's a very good thought and I'm sure you'll hear a lot about it 
from other members.