ESE!Lupin condensed and Lupin and Sirius replies

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 147053

>> Olivier:
>> He could have let Harry throw himself through the veil (JKR insists 
>> numerous times that Harry fights "viciously" and "with every bit of
>> strength" against Lupin and that Lupin later maintains a 
>> "precautionary grip" on Harry). 

> Pippin:
> If Lupin knows and believes the entire prophecy, he knows that the 
> Veil will not kill the Chosen One. 

Christina:

Why not?  JKR seems to have backed down from the strict interpretation
of the prophecy implied in OotP, saying that the entire thing could be
nullified if Harry and Voldemort just walked away.  So while I think
that the prophecy will play itself out in the end, the prophecy can't
be "tested" because it isn't strictly binding (not in the way that
Sirius's will bound Kreacher to Harry, which was something that
*could* be tested).

On top of that, I assume you're talking about the "either must die at
the hand of the other" line.  That can be interpreted very strictly,
as I believe you are doing here, or very loosely.  The dictionary
definition of "at the hand of" is "by or through the action (or
agency) of."  So if a member of Voldemort's organization, acting in
his interest, kills Harry, is this a fulfillment of the prophecy?  If
Voldemort orders somebody to kill Harry, is this a fulfillment of the
prophecy?  If Voldemort and Harry are dueling, and Harry trips and
falls into the veil, is this a fulfillment of the prophecy?  We don't
know how strictly JKR meant for this line to be interpreted, but
there's certainly enough leeway to say that these scenarios could be
possible ways to fulfill the prophecy.  If Voldemort is the only
person that can kill Harry, then I think that cheapens and nullifies a
lot of the trials Harry has faced so far.  With the strict
interpretation that you are suggesting (nothing can physically kill
Harry except for Voldemort), Harry couldn't have been killed by Sirius
Black or BCJ (or any other Death Eater).


> Pippin:
> So if Harry is killed by it, he's not the Chosen One, and his death
> would be pointless.

Christina:

OK, let's assume you are correct, and Harry, as the Chosen One, can't
die by running into the veil.  Finding out that Harry is *not* the
Chosen One via his death through the veil has a HUGE point, and is
very useful.  It would prove to Voldemort that Harry is *not* the
threat he should be focussing on.  Rather, there is somebody else out
there, the true "Chosen One," that Voldemort must track down and
extinguish.  Very powerful information.  If Harry tries to go through
the veil and can't, then Voldemort has 100% confirmation that Harry is
the Chosen One.


> Pippin
> Anyway, he hasn't got anything against Harry personally, he just 
> wants Voldemort victorious over the Ministry (IMO).

Christina:

And the death of Harry would be the death of the a great threat to
Voldemort's regime.  Voldemort could quit spending valuable time,
energy, and manpower trying to kill the poor kid, and begin his true
reign of power.  If Lupin wants Voldemort victorious (over anybody),
then Harry is an obstacle that must be removed.  So Lupin has a very
good reason to let Harry die.


> Pippin:
> Lupin clearly didn't want or expect Dumbledore to die -- I believe 
> he thought Dumbledore was so powerful that nothing could harm him.

Christina:

Dumbledore is also huge obstacle in Voldemort's desire to take over
the WW.  If Dumbledore is so powerful that nothing can harm him, then
Voldemort will never be free to truly emerge victorious.  Lupin would
be supporting, in his own opinion, a futile cause.

Christina