ESE!Lupin condensed and Lupin and Sirius replies

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 147073

> 
> Pippin:
> 
> The identity of the person who hexed Harry's broom in PS/SS is not
> an "official" mystery either. Nobody except Hagrid ever suggests that
> it wasn't  Snape. 

Neri:
Well, I think this is a borderline case, because the trio and Hagrid
do discuss it. But in general I agree. In fact I can't think of even
one clear-cut official mystery that suggests the bad guy in SS/PS
*isn't* Snape. This is precisely why the words "It was Quirrell" were
so shattering (I've found that I'm not the only HP fan who remembers
the exact moment he was reading them the first time). This is the
place where the reader first realizes that JKR has more aspirations in
the mystery department than Enid Blyton.

But as JKR's mystery plots became more and more developed, when the WW
background became richer and richer, and especially when we started
building huge conspiracy theories around any tiny "clue", it became
necessary to give us some direction: This is significant and this is
not. From CoS on the final solutions and especially the identity of
the bad guys always depend on solving several official mysteries. And
the main function of JKR's interviews and website seems to be telling
us which mysteries are official and which are not.

> Pippin:
> Interestingly, Hagrid is the only character in HBP
> to suggest that Harry might have misunderstood what happened on
> the tower, which you also seem to feel is not an "official" mystery.
> 

Neri:
If you go upthread to my original list of official mysteries you'll
find "what really happened on the tower" in there. It was one of my
points against ESE!Lupin, which doesn't solve this mystery (or any
other big official mystery).

BTW, I wouldn't count much on Hagrid's support for Snape. He also
refused to believe Dumbledore was dead at the time. I don't remember
that we were told what was his opinion on Snape after he learned
Dumbledore is indeed dead.

> Pippin:
> The identity of Wormtail *is*  an "official"  mystery, at least until 
> Lupin says, "Peter is Wormtail." At that point it seems solved -- 
> but what if it isn't?

Neri:
Who were Moony, Padfoot and Prongs were also official mysteries at the
time, but they were officially closed together with Wormtail. Of
course, this doesn't mean that Wormtail (or Moony, or Padfoot, or
Prongs) can't turn out to be somebody else now. It is just that when a
theory designed to be a big Bang at the climax of the whole series
doesn't solve even *one* big official mystery, this is when I start
wondering if it's even going in the right direction.

> Pippin:
> There are mysteries for which we are given provisional solutions
> which in later books turn out to be incomplete...why Dumbledore left 
> Harry at the  Dursleys, for example, or why Snape hates the Marauders. 
> There is usually some hint that they are partial, as there is in
this case.

Neri:
Incomplete yes, but I can't remember an official solution that was
later turned 180 degrees. However, I never claimed that this can't
happen.  Of course it can. All I'm saying is that if a theory answers,
among other things, a few official mysteries, this is a good sign.

> Pippin:
> You can find plenty of debates on this list over whether Snape knew
> the Marauder nicknames or recognized the names on the map
> from some other source. The Pensieve scene in OOP does not really
> answer the question, as it's not clear how much of the MWPP dialogue
> Snape could hear at  the time.

Neri:
I don't consider a debate in the list as making a mystery official. We
had endless debates about whether Snape is a vampire, and it turned
out JKR has never meant it even as a red herring.

Regarding Snape knowing the Marauders' nicknames, I'm personally sure
he knows it from the pensieve. He didn't hear it the first time
around, of course, but he probably visited this memory again, and I'm
sure he wouldn't resist a chance to spy on the Marauders, even 20
years after the fact. If Harry could hear the Marauders' conversation
in the pensieve, then so could Snape. In fact, I always thought that
the pensieve scene was written, in a small part, to answer the
question of where Snape had learned the Marauders' nicknames.

> Pippin: 
> Wormtail's inconsistent ability *is* an "official" mystery: 
> "But Wormtail --displaying a presence of mind I would never have
> expected of him--convinced Bertha Jorkins to accompany him on
> a night-time stroll." --GoF ch 33. 
> 

Neri:
Hmm, I'd say this is even more borderline than Hagrid's support of
Snape in SS/PS. If there's a mystery here at all, it could very well
be presented as "why had people underestimated Wormtail?" Or it could
be taken as the official closing of a mystery: "Wormtail *was*
underestimated". Especially since at that point we have good reason to
believe Wormtail had deceived the whole WW to think he's dead for 12
years, successfully lies to Voldy and has the guts to cut his own hand.  

> Pippin:
> What can kill unicorns is also an "official" mystery. 
> Wormtail is  able to prepare a potion "concocted from unicorn blood" 
> with no explanation of how a "poor wizard" like Peter would obtain it. 
> Quirrell was able to kill unicorns, supposedly, but Quirrell is now
dead, 
> so who is helping Voldemort kill unicorns in GoF? Hagrid said a werewolf
> couldn't do it, but the unicorns in PS/SS were attacked previous to the
> night of Harry's detention. "Second time in a week." Hagrid
> says, "I found one dead last Wednesday." Hagrid knows that a non-
> wizard werewolf couldn't catch one, and the attacks are too spaced out
> to have been done at full moon. But he's not thinking about 
> someone casting a spell -- and now we know that there's a spell
> that causes terrible slashing cuts, and the Marauders knew it.
> 

Neri:
"How Wormtail obtained the unicorn blood in GoF?" is a classic example
of an unofficial mystery. Harry had never wondered about it or
discussed it with the trio. Dumbledore had never even mentioned it in
any of his talks. JKR had never mentioned it in a chat or in her
website. Ron had never made a joke about it. It was never highlighted
in the books in any way. Again, this doesn't mean that it won't come
up. But the series is full of small mysteries like that, and Book 7
will have to be thousands of pages long to answer all of them. So if I
have to bet on an official mystery against an unofficial mystery, I'd
say the chances of the first to be answered in Book 7 are much better.

I'd say the question "Who killed the unicorns in SS/PS?" is an
officially solved mystery. Quirrellmort killed them.

> Pippin:
> Why Dumbledore is so confident that a supposed murderer's escape 
> will prove a godsend is also an "official" mystery. One possible
> explanation is that Peter is no occlumens and Dumbledore knows
> he couldn't have been the spy.
> 

Neri:
Well, I'm not sure I'd categorize "why is Dumbledore so confident that
a supposed murderer's escape will prove a godsend?" as an official
mystery. I mean, officially Dumbledore immediately provided the
answer: "because he owes his life to Harry Potter". 

> Pippin:
> Your interpretation of Wormtail's line "The boy is nothing to me,
> nothing to me at all!" is that Voldemort doesn't know it's a lie. But
> a legilimens does not detect objective truth. He can only detect the
> thoughts and feelings that contradict the lie. 
> 
> Voldemort does not believe that any of his servants are faithful to
him. 
> He has no comprehension of human ties whatever. If Wormtail feels 
> some underlying loyalty to Harry, how would Voldemort detect it?
> He has never felt such things himself.  Indeed
> he consistently underestimates what people are willing to do for
> one another -- he never thought that Lily would throw herself
> in front of Harry, and he thinks she was a fool to do so even though
> it resulted in his discorporation. 
> 
> Inviting people to forswear their ties to one another floats his
boat -- 
> it validates his choice to live as he does. He did it to Lily, he
does it
> to Wormtail here, and he'll do it to the Malfoys in HBP. In short,
> IMO, if the sentence were changed to "My life debt to Harry Potter is
> nothing to me, nothing to me at all!" Voldemort would accept
> it  just as easily. 
> 


Neri:
I don't think Voldemort is so blind that he can't *recognize* love and
gratitude, even if he doesn't feel them himself. Here are some of
Dumbledore's words about Voldemort:

PoA, Ch.22, p. 427 (Scholastic):
"I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant to be in the debt of
Harry Potter"

OotP, Ch. 37 p. 828:
"I was sure that if he realized that our relationship was – or had
ever been – closer than that of headmaster and pupil, he would seize
his chance to use you as a mean to spy on me."

Ibid, p. 831:
"But Kreacher's information made him realize that the one person whom
you would go to any length to rescue was Sirius Black"

Ibid: p. 838:
"I cared about you too much <snip> In other words, I acted exactly as
Voldemort expect we fools who love to act."

But assuming for a moment you are right, are you saying ESE!Lupin
didn't tell Voldemort about Wormtail's Debt, and didn't explain him
the significance of it?


> Pippin:
>  Whether Dumbledore was  reckless in trusting Snape is also an
>  "official" mystery.  At least automatically assuming Lupin was 
> worthy of trust is a far more understandable mistake.
> 

Neri:
I agree this is an official mystery since Snape, McGonagall and Harry
raise the question, but I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are
you saying that Dumbledore recklessly trusting ESE!Lupin explains him
recklessly trusting Snape, or what?

> Pippin:
> That's a stretch, IMO.  Why not have Lupin suggest taking the other
children 
> back to the castle? Surely Ron and Hermione don't need to see Pettigrew
> die? 

Neri:
It would mess with the next parts of the plot, and it would show
disloyalty to Sirius, letting him shouldering the blame alone. It's
like saying "oh, they already convicted you for this murder anyway, so
you might as well do it yourself. No need to involve me in this mess".
Personally I'd prefer a Lupin who shares the full responsibility over
a Lupin who knows that Sirius is going to kill Pettigrew but prefers
to slither out of the scene and keep his own hands clean. That would
be more like Snape, who is happy to let the dementors do his dirty
work for him.

> Pippin:
> Indeed, the evil plot-device fairy was very busy with Lupin that night.
> First she made him forget that he was going to transform, then he
> forgot that Snape would be bringing the potion, then he
> forgot to de-activate the Marauder's Map, then he overlooked Harry's
> invisibility cloak, then he forgot his duty as a teacher to ignore
Ron's 
> protests and splint his leg, then he forgot that killing would split
his 
> and Sirius's souls (surely as a DADA teacher he would know that?), 
> and he constantly forgot that he wasn't the leader of the gang and
> should therefore not be telling Sirius what to do. 
> 

Neri:
You forgot to mention that he also neglected to brush his teeth that
night <g>. And if that doesn't prove he's ESE I don't know what does.

I think Lupin's forgetfulness is easily explained by the DADA jinx. It
hardly did him any good, after all. He would have been much better off
had he done the sensible thing: take the Map with him, pick up Harry's
invisibility cloak, and he'd be in a position to do anything he'd want
to, whether he's ESE or not, without any intrusion from Snape. If the
evil plot-device fairy was busy that night it was mostly against Lupin.  

Now, I don't think that it would be like JKR to blame a conscious
choice on the DADA jinx, which is why I hold Lupin responsible for
going to kill Pettigrew, the same way I hold Sirius responsible for
that, Hermione and Ron for letting it happen without a single squeak
of protest, and Snape for trying to get two people to lose their souls
because of a school grudge. I'm not sure what this would have done to
*his* soul, but perhaps he could make an educated guess, since he's
supposed to know a lot about DADA too.

> Pippin:
> It's a strange thing. My theory is unashamedly plot-driven, yet
> it allows the characters to behave in character-driven ways, while your
> theory, which is supposedly character-driven, appears to require
> clumsy plotting to support it.
> 

Neri:
Not by my count. By my count, Goodguy!Lupin acts OOC hardly once
during the whole night when Hermione does also. His motivation changes
only once and with very good reason: he finds for the first time in 12
years that Pettigrew is alive and Sirius is innocent. Any
forgetfulness is nicely explained between the combination of these
huge revelations and the DADA jinx. 

In contrast, ESE!Lpuin can't even be said to act out of character
since he doesn't seem to have any consistent character. He doesn't
even remember the crimes he himself committed, he changes his motives
completely three or four times during the night (I lost the exact
count). He makes several very illogical decisions that mostly foil his
own objectives. And Hermione still acts OOC once.

> 
> Pippin:
> It really doesn't matter what style or genre she's writing in.
> Unless you can explain why it improves the story  for JKR to
> ignore the interior logic of the rules she herself has invented
> in a crucial scene involving the principal characters, it's bad 
> writing for her to do so.
>

Neri:
I'm not sure what you mean here by interior logic and rules. 


Neri