Hermione dead and MAJOR SPOILER to "The Sixth Sense" movie

[lucianam73]

No: HPFGUIDX 147175

> Miles said:
> The idea is fun to read, yes, crazy - really, it is, but I like it.
> But I have a few major problems with it.

> 1) As you mentioned yourself, there is no hint for a timetravel
after PoA.

lucianam:

I think there are hints. We are informed all Time-Turners have been
destroyed, which seems to be a reverse hint but actually what this
information does is remind the reader of the existence of
Time-Travelling. Like that picture portraing an enormous pipe, with
the phrase `This is not a pipe' written underneath.

And what is that watch Ron got for Christmas if not a very complicated
Time-Travelling device? I can't see what else it could be, and I think
Dumbledore sent it (just like he sent the Invisibility Cloak in B1).

> Miles:
> 3) If I put my problems of 2) out of the way, my question is - so 
> what? What would it add to the plot if either a Future! or Past! or 
> Present!Hermione had died in OotP, being replaced by any of these   
> three Hermiones without realising it - and without any consequences 
> for her, Harry, Ron or the remaining parts of the HP story?

lucianam:
I agree it makes no difference to the plots of B6 & B7, since we
haven't even realized she died, but it'll make a big difference in B7
if what happens is Hermione-from-the-future dying in that office. It
means Hermione, in book 7, will never return from the Time Travel to
the DoM because she died during it. 

I have no precise idea, of course, why JKR would kill off Hermione,
other than the crappy reasons she gave us for killing off (?) Sirius:
Harry must rely on his own resources, this is what happens in a war, etc.

If she always meant to put Harry through REAL pain in her series, imo
that can only be accomplished either by Ron or Hermione's deaths.
After all, this is not the Trio's story, it's Harry's. It was always
`Harry Potter and the PS/SS' etc, never `Harry, Ron and Hermione and
the PS/SS' etc. I don't think Hermione is untouchable.


> Allie said:
> 
> Scenario 2:

> Hermione from the future arrives. Let's call her Book 7 Hermione
> (B7H).
> 
> 2a. Present-time Hermione dies. That's it, that's the end of the
> story. Because if present time Hermione dies, she can't go forward
> in time to the point where she'll use a time turner.
> 
> 2b. B7H dies. Present-time Hermione goes forward, lives two more
> years, uses a time turner, and then dies in the DoM. She would
> disappear forever as soon as she used the time turner. (snipped)
> 

lucianam:

Thanks!!! for putting the Hermione-from-the-future-dies scenario is
plausible, simple words!! You have a practical mind and a great way
with words!

I cannot come up with a believable Hermione-from-the-past dying in the
DoM battle scenario, either. But I don't know if JKR can. 

I also don't know what that bit about the `shout from a room nearby,
then a crash and a scream' means. It strikes me as important, and it
happens before Harry, Neville and Hermione try to hide in the small
office. So, for justice's sake, I cannot disregard a bit of
information just because it doesn't fit_ I must wallow in confusion. 

But we can always come up with a plausible explanation for those
noises. Notice Harry yells, right after he hears the shout, crash and
scream:

`RON?'

And then, `GINNY? LUNA?' Well, Ron's name came to mind first, so what
if he really heard Ron's voice?  More specifically he probably heard
Time-Travelling Ron's voice, since B5 Ron was in the Planet Room
floating about and `gone a bit funny'. And probably Harry heard a
girl's voice, too, only he thought it was Ginny or Luna since Hermione
was with him in the Time Room. The girl's voice belonged to
Time-Travelling Hermione.


>
> Miles:
(snip)
> 2) There would be no reason for a Past!Hermione to travel into the 
future. She is not a Seer, and there is no Seer she is in contact to, 
> who could have predicted a future situation in such an exact way, 
> that she would have\decided to timetravel to this specific point of
> time in the future.
> A Future!Hermione would have tried to either prevent the Ministry
> Mission orto alarm the Order (or Aurors) much earlier to prevent the
> mortal peril for Harry, the other students, and the Order members.
And to prevent Sirius's death. But we know, that Hermione neither
> succeeded to avert the travel (she would have found a way if she knew
> what would happen - she is Hermione), nor succeeded to ease the 
> Ministry situation.


> Allie:
(snipped)

> 
 In order to make this plausible, there would have to be some BIG
compelling
> reason for B7H to go to the DoM in the first place, some event that
> she wanted to change. (Do we assume that she knows she's going to
> die there?) Anyway, what event happens in that room that she
> changed by coming back? Anything could have happened, Dolohov was
> just yelling their location to the other DE's. 
(snip)
> 

lucianam:

Since the simplest explanation is often the true one, let's say B7H
(I'll use Allie's abbreviation!) did have a Big compelling Reason to
go back to the DoM, maybe even she was supposed to be in that office
do do a Specific Deed and not solely for hiding purposes
 

(I think she might have used that office as a hiding spot.
Time-Travellers are not supposed to be seen, so maybe she was there,
presumably hidden under a desk, knowing her, Harry and Neville's
B5-selves would enter any minute now.)


 but she never did the Deed, because she was killed by Dolohov's curse.

> Allie:
(snipped)
> SO: the theory ONLY works if Hermione from the future arrives and
> then dies in the DoM, and the only reasons for her to do this is to
> save Harry.

lucianam:
I don't agree that her only reason to go back in time would be to save
Harry's life. I agree there must be a Important reason, but in the
course of B7 we may learn, say, that it was VITAL that some 'small'
thing happened or not during that night. Perhaps they were supposed to
do something in the Prophecy Room, I don't know. Maybe switch the
Prophecies? Remember there were two Prophecies Harry could touch, the
'die at the hand of the other' one and the other Trelawney made in
PoA. Of course that would mean a Trio Time-Travel, Ron and Hermione
coming along with Harry so they could watch his back.

> SPOILER FOR THE SIXTH SENSE MOVIE
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> SPOILER FOR THE SIXTH SENSE MOVIE
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> SPOILER FOR THE SIXTHE SENSE MOVIE

I know I related the `bookcase crash and heavy books cascade/ Hermione
popping out of nowhere crying `Silencio!' to the `Willis being
shot/Willis apparently alive apparition' in the very next scene. But
this parallel works just as well with `Hermione being hit by the
purple curse/Hermione happily reading the Daily Prophet' in The Second
War Begins chapter. Sorry I didn't point that out earlier, I seem to
take more than one post to put things together properly.

Well, here we go: thanks to your (Allie's and Miles's) observations I
got this whole thing clearer now, and as far as I can see a
Hermione-from-the-past travelling to the DoM is a way more unlikely
scenario than the other one (B7H travelling to the DoM). Keeping in
mind we probably don't have enough clues to put this puzzle together,
and the sad fact that I'm pants at Time-Travelling mechanics, I think
I'll risk describing what is more likely to have happened.

- Action begins in B7. For some reason (presumably Big) the Trio, or
at least Ron and Hermione, decide to return to the DoM battle. They
set up Ron's watch and off they go.

- I'll suggest, as a somewhat random possiblity, B7 Ron and Hermione
hid in the small office. Something happened, prompting the `shout,
crash and scream'. In the few following minutes, B7 Hermione stays in
the office as B5 Hermione, Harry and Neville run from the Death Eaters
and finally get into the office. What happened to B7 Ron, did he leave
the office, is he hiding too, is he hurt?

- B5 Hermione is deluged by books. B7 Hermione cries `Silencio!' and
strikes Dolohov dumb. Why? Perhaps she panicked the Death Eaters would
come and reveal the existence of TWO Hermiones to Harry and Neville,
or perhaps she pulled a Stag Patronus!Harry_ meaning she knows she can
hex the Death eater because `that's what happened in the past so it
must be allright'. Only it's not allright, of course, and even without
the power of speech, Dolohov hits her with a curse strong enough to
kill her.

- Harry and Neville leave, carrying B7 Hermione, who is dead already
(there was never a pulse!) or dies right before they reach the
circular room and Harry notices the fiery crosses have faded. B5
Hermione remains unconscious, but alive, buried under the books.

- Pure speculation: B7 Ron comes back to the office, or wakes up, and
doesn't see Hermione. Or he was hiding all the time and had to witness
everything that happened, and knows Harry and Neville took B7 Hermione
with them. Does he find B5 Hermione under the books and tries to wake
her up, as she remains unconscious? Does Dumbledore step right in and
tells him he'll take care of her, tells him to go back to B7 Timeframe
or tells him to finish whatever he was supposed to do in the DoM, in
the first place? Does he realize all that by himself?

- Probably before meeting Harry in his office, Dumbledore: hides, or
buries, the body of B7 Hermione; obviously finds living! B5 Hermione
under the books and heals any cuts and bruises she's suffered
(Dolohov's curse supposedly didn't leave any marks); takes her to
Madam Pomfrey and tells her Hermione was hit by a whatever-its-name
purple curse, probably using the Confundus charm so Madam Pomfrey will
buy that story and not give Hermione anything stronger than pumpkin
juice `ten times a day'. B5 Hermione wakes up in the hospital wing and
is told she was hit by the purple curse; possibly Harry tells her how
it happened and if she doesn't remember crying `Silencio!', well,
she's been through shock and all. Or Dumbledore messed with her
memories, just a little.

- Ron returns to B7 reality. He learns, immediately or afterwards, of
Hermione's death. I expect Dumbledore's left directions to her burying
place for him and Harry.

Lucianam, wallowing in doubt but not that much (I'm pretty sure
Hermione is dead, alas!)