Being Good and Evil ( Draco and a bit of Ron)/Harry as DD man

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154673

> Betsy Hp:
> I hope I wasn't *quite* as condescending to Draco as that <g>, but 
I 
> am pretty much saying what you agree with above, Alla.  Draco is 
> coming at the world with a certain set of values and a very strong 
> love for his parents, and I think it's expecting too much of Draco 
> to expect him to suddenly say, for example, in GoF "Oh, Father is 
> being cruel to those muggles.  Father *must* be evil.  I will now 
> disavow Father and everything he stands for and flee to 
Dumbledore's 
> side!"
>

Alla:

I give up :) I guess I just understand Magpie's writing better than 
yours. It seemed to me very clear that she was not making excuses 
for Draco, just gave his reasons, but what I read from this 
paragraph reads to me as absolute excuse for Draco. WHY is it too 
much to expect from him?

Doesn't he have his head on the shoulders to understand that murder 
is wrong/


Betsy Hp: 
> And I look to Harry's response to the twins toying with their 
chosen 
> muggle to back up the argument that the person doing the action 
> *will* affect how that action is perceived.  Yes, it's morally 
more 
> mature, I think, to look at the action and divorce it from your 
> emotional feelings about the people involved.  But it's *hard*.  
And 
> for some reason Draco is expected to make this massive leap, but 
> Harry is not. 

Alla:

Because Harry is ALREADY on the right side. See, I kept thinking 
about your argument that Harry did not have the same crisis as Draco 
did at the end of HBP and I realised something. I don't think he is 
supposed to.

Again, he makes mistakes as everybody, but he is altogether on the 
right side and I don't think he should have super gigantic crisis as 
in he is SO completely an utterly wrong. He was NOT after all the 
one who planned Headmaster' assasination, DRACO did and yeah, I 
would hope that this would force Draco to have crisis of faith, 
otherwise he should just drop dead as far as I am concerned.


Harry had plenty of SHOCKS in his young life, as in realising that 
WW safety is on his shoulders, that DD is human, etc, but over what 
is he supposed to have super gigantic crisis?

I mean, let me take myself as RL example. You know my age :) ( 
thirty ish). I sure made mistakes over the course of my life and I 
had to reevaluate things, apologise to people, etc, BUT honestly on 
the top of my head I am not sure that I ever had CRISIS of faith as 
in me being SO completely wrong that my system of beliefs crumbled 
in front of my eyes.

I hope it does not sound arrogant and if you knew me in RL, you 
would see that I am not an arrogant person, but I am not sure if 
more or less decent person is supposed to have crisis of faith 
necessarily. I mean, I have plenty of flaws, but I never did 
anything criminal, I am TRYING to treat people the way I want them 
to treat me, etc, what is to have crisis about?

Again, NOT talking about mistakes, since surely everybody does them

DRACO is the one who HAS TO reevaluate his beliefs, I don't think 
that Harry's beliefs are so utterly wrong that he is supposed to do 
complete reevaluation.

Acknowledge mistakes, judgmentalism, etc? Yes, sure, but Harry is 
not a criminal by the end of HBP, Draco is.


Betsy Hp: 
<SNIP>
> I don't think they're really *trying* to recruit people (well, 
> Hermione may have been, but she blew it) but once again I don't 
see 
> how Draco could have looked to them and said, "Ah, these are the 
> people who are on the right side of things."  There's not a moment 
> in canon that I can think of where the Trio (or anyone, really) 
> offered Draco an alternative.  Not until the Tower, anyway.

Alla:

Well, Amiable Dorsai upthread gave a very good list of decent things 
Trio did, if nothing of it convinced Draco, that's his loss IMO.

BUT actually speaking about recruitment, I cannot call myself a 
student of judaism, far from it, but even I know that judaism for 
example does NOT recruit people, quite the contrary.

People who want to convert supposed to see for themself and convince 
rabbi that they really want it, as far as I know.

I don't think this is a good side obligation to recruit people 
necessarily, more like behave as good guys ( and yes, I think they 
often do) and if anybody wants to come, not to turn them away.

Why were they supposed to OFFER Draco anything/

Betsy Hp: 
> Not that I'm saying Draco is dependent on the Trio for acheiving 
his 
> own moral maturity.  I just disagree with the idea that Draco 
should 
> have realized he was evil because he was around the goodness of 
> Harry.  If anything, because of the rivalry between Draco and 
Harry, 
> Draco would naturally shed *away* from anything Harry was a part 
> of.  So that's two obstacles standing in Draco's way: his love for 
> his family and his dislike for Harry.  

Alla:

Oh, no, I would not suggest that. How about being around Dumbledore 
and at least seeing that what Draco's  side does is bad?

I would not suggest Draco becoming Harry best friend and adoring 
him, that is not possible, but if nothing else as I said to realise 
that his side is bad and that is why maybe it makes sense to join 
the other even if he does not like people there much?

Simply because they do not kill for a living and fun, if nothing 
else.

Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
If Draco does gain the ability to think and choose for 
> himself than he'll have gained something that Harry is, at this 
> point, still missing.  Which is why I think Harry will be forced 
> into a similar position via DDM!Snape.

Alla:

See above. I don't think Harry HAS TO have the same crisis Draco did 
necessarily and yes, even if Snape turned out to be DD!M. That would 
be IMO a very understandable mistake Harry made, nothing to have 
crisis about.

 
> > >>Alla:
> > Or in the similar fashion narrator noticing that Malfoy was a 
bit 
> > upset when he hears about Cedric's death.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> For me it's the quivering smirk. [GoF scholastic hardback p.729]  
> Too small? <g>  It is more than we get from either Harry or 
Hermione 
> over poor Marietta's fate. <eg>

Alla:

That is an interesting point. No, I like it, but no, I don't think 
that especially Harry should have expressed anything like that 
towards "poor Marietta" who placed all of them in such grave danger 
from Umbridge, IMO.

JMO,

Alla