Being Good and Evil ( Draco and a bit of Ron)/Harry as DD man

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 154676

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > Draco is coming at the world with a certain set of values and a 
> > very strong love for his parents, and I think it's expecting too 
> > much of Draco to expect him to suddenly say, for example, in    
> > GoF "Oh, Father is being cruel to those muggles.  Father *must* 
> > be evil.  I will now disavow Father and everything he stands for 
> > and flee to Dumbledore's side!"
 
> >>Alla:
> I give up :)

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I don't believe that. ;)

> >>Alla:
> I guess I just understand Magpie's writing better than 
> yours. It seemed to me very clear that she was not making excuses 
> for Draco, just gave his reasons, but what I read from this 
> paragraph reads to me as absolute excuse for Draco. WHY is it too 
> much to expect from him? 
> Doesn't he have his head on the shoulders to understand that      
> murder is wrong/

Betsy Hp:
What murder?  I'm talking about Lucius being among the crowd that 
twirled the muggle family in the air.  No one died there.  And Draco 
doesn't turn on his father because he loves him and because muggle-
baiting is not seen as a horrible wrong within the WW.  We saw that 
earlier with the twins.

The *reason* Draco doesn't run screaming in the other direction is 
because he's a child of the WW and he loves his father.  And the 
reason Harry doesn't run screaming from the twins is that he likes 
the twins, he dislikes his family, and everyone (except for Arthur) 
assures him that baiting muggles is a bit of harmless fun.

> >>Betsy Hp: 
> > And I look to Harry's response to the twins toying with their 
> > chosen muggle to back up the argument that the person doing the 
> > action *will* affect how that action is perceived.  Yes, it's    
> > morally more mature, I think, to look at the action and divorce 
> > it from your emotional feelings about the people involved.  But 
> > it's *hard*. And for some reason Draco is expected to make this 
> > massive leap, but Harry is not. 

> >>Alla:
> Because Harry is ALREADY on the right side.

Betsy Hp:
This is where you lose me.  It's bad for Lucius to bait muggles and 
his own son, who loves him very much, should turn his back on his 
family because he father did such an evil thing.  However, when the 
twins bait muggles, it's okay.

The *only* difference I can see is that Harry is considered "good" 
and he likes the twins, and he's okay with their behavior.  So it 
comes down to whatever Harry says is okay is okay, and if he turns 
around and says that same thing is bad, even though he's 
contradicting himself, everyone around him should intuit that he's 
changed his mind.  Draco should then drop his family because they 
bait muggles, and join with the Weasleys, who also bait muggles but 
in a way that amuses Harry.

I do agree that Harry is on the right side.  But that doesn't give 
him (or his friends) a free pass.  And Draco is on the wrong side, 
but it's asking too much of him, IMO, to magically realize it.  
Especially if the "good" side is engaged in the same sort of 
behavior.

> >>Alla:
> See, I kept thinking about your argument that Harry did not have  
> the same crisis as Draco did at the end of HBP and I realised     
> something. I don't think he is supposed to.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But that would mean the books would end with Draco as the wiser 
character.  I don't think JKR is going to do that.

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> Harry had plenty of SHOCKS in his young life, as in realising that 
> WW safety is on his shoulders, that DD is human, etc, but over     
> what is he supposed to have super gigantic crisis?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
There's not a need for the crisis of faith to be super gigantic.  
Frankly, I think Draco will have (is having) the bigger crisis of 
faith, because as you point out, he's starting out on the wrong 
side.  So he's having to rethink all he's been taught.

But Harry, if he's to acheive full adulthood, full wisdom, will have 
to have a moment when he steps away from his emotional reactions to 
people and actually considers their actions.  To realize that even 
though he likes the twins and doesn't like Dudley that wizards 
baiting muggles is a bad thing.

It doesn't even mean that Harry will have to see the twins as evil 
(I'd love it, but that's *my* emotional reaction <g>) just 
mistaken.  I *do* think Harry will have to recognize that there is 
good in Slytherin, and I do think he'll have to recognize that 
Snape's been on the right side the whole time.

> >>Alla:
> DRACO is the one who HAS TO reevaluate his beliefs, I don't think 
> that Harry's beliefs are so utterly wrong that he is supposed to   
> do complete reevaluation.

Betsy Hp:
I actually agree, as I said above, that Draco will have to go 
through the bigger reevaluation.  But I don't fault him for having 
to go through something like that, and I certainly don't fault him 
for not recognizing the need until he's fully faced with the true 
horror of Voldemort.

There's nothing that occured up until HBP that was big enough, IMO, 
to turn him from the path his parents set him on.

> >>Betsy Hp: 
> <SNIP>
> > I don't think they're really *trying* to recruit people (well, 
> > Hermione may have been, but she blew it) but once again I don't 
> > see how Draco could have looked to them and said, "Ah, these are 
> > the people who are on the right side of things."  There's not a 
> > moment in canon that I can think of where the Trio (or anyone,   
> > really) offered Draco an alternative.  Not until the Tower,     
> > anyway.

> >>Alla:
> Well, Amiable Dorsai upthread gave a very good list of decent      
> things Trio did, if nothing of it convinced Draco, that's his loss 
> IMO.

Betsy Hp:
Ah, but then Amiable Dorsai pointed out that someone raised as Draco 
was would not see the things the Trio did as decent.  So he showed 
his list to be meaningless as far as Draco was concerned.

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> I don't think this is a good side obligation to recruit people 
> necessarily, more like behave as good guys ( and yes, I think they 
> often do) and if anybody wants to come, not to turn them away.
> Why were they supposed to OFFER Draco anything/

Betsy Hp:
But you're suggesting that they *did* offer Draco something.  That 
for some reason Draco was supposed to look at the actions of the 
Trio and look at the actions of his family and then turn on his 
family.  I was only pointing out that the Trio don't actually do 
anything that might attract Draco.  Or even give him pause for 
thought that I can recall.

I'm not saying the good guys *should* recruit anyone.  But if they 
aren't recruiting people, why does Draco get blamed for not being 
recruited?

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> How about being around Dumbledore and at least seeing that what    
> Draco's side does is bad?

Betsy Hp:
Well, at first you have that house cup debacle in PS/SS.  That 
wasn't going to win Draco over.  But when Draco *does* finally 
interact with Dumbledore (in HBP) he does start to question his 
beliefs, I think.  Hence his hesitation and his lowering wand.

> >>Alla: 
> I would not suggest Draco becoming Harry best friend and adoring 
> him, that is not possible, but if nothing else as I said to        
> realise that his side is bad and that is why maybe it makes sense 
> to join the other even if he does not like people there much?
> Simply because they do not kill for a living and fun, if nothing 
> else.

Betsy Hp:
Draco's father doesn't kill for a living.  And if he does kill for 
fun, Draco doesn't know anything about it.  When Draco *is* faced 
with killing he does start to question things.

But previous to HBP, Draco isn't surrounded by killers, that he knew 
about anyway.  And as you pointed out above, no one on the good side 
is trying to win Draco over.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > For me it's the quivering smirk. [GoF scholastic hardback       
> > p.729] Too small? <g>  It is more than we get from either Harry 
> > or Hermione over poor Marietta's fate. <eg>

> >>Alla:
> That is an interesting point. No, I like it, but no, I don't think 
> that especially Harry should have expressed anything like that 
> towards "poor Marietta" who placed all of them in such grave      
> danger from Umbridge, IMO.

Betsy Hp:
See!!  So if disfiguring someone for life is such good behavior no 
one should feel any guilt about it, how the heck is Draco supposed 
to decide that his beloved family are the bad ones?  I mean, where 
is the difference?  Umbridge disfigures those who cross her, 
Hermione disfigures those who cross her.  Where's the difference?

Betsy Hp