[HPforGrownups] Re: Being Good and Evil/DD trust in Snapean

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 154699

Pheonixgod:
> Two points. One, I think you are right about where the draco plotline
> is headed.  I think JKR is going to redeem him. or at least try. short
> of a miracle happening, I'm not going to buy a redeemed Draco for one
> simple reason.  regardless of his dark night of the soul, moral
> revelation about Daddy, or the scales falling from his eyes, Draco will
> still have broken the law.  He will still have nearly murdered Ron and
> that other girl whose name escapes me at the moment, he will still have
> allowed death eaters into the castle, still have created the situation
> that killed Dumbledore and mutilated Bill.  Its good that Draco might
> have a change of heart, but ultimately, so what? he still needs to pay
> his debt to the people he hurt through his actions.
>
> that is my big problem with Dumbledore.  His version of giving people
> second chances involves them not paying the debt for their screwed up
> first chance. I get second chances.

Magpie:
Looking at it from the book's perspective I think the key is Dumbledore 
announcing that "no real harm has been done" on the Tower.  Whether you 
agree with it or not, I took that as a key that Rowling had been very 
careful in HBP to limit the lasting damage so that Draco is still "innocent" 
according to DD.  Near-misses don't count--just as Ginny isn't a murderer in 
CoS because everyone just gets petrified and then wakes up.  (And just in 
case it needs to be said, of course Ginny was possessed so not responsible 
for what she did the Draco was, but the fact remains that if someone had 
died in CoS it would have been very different for Ginny's character.)

As for paying the price in the story, it's probably a question of personal 
preference.  I think I'm with Betsy in thinking that rehabilitation in this 
context is far more important and valuable than official punishment, and 
that punishment might even be counter-productive.  (Which is not to say that 
I don't see the importance of justice and jailtime in the world or anything 
like that--but again I think this is why Rowling's very careful about the 
lasting damage Draco intentionally causes himself.  Even Bill's scarring 
specifically comes from something Draco didn't intend.)   In Narnia I much 
prefer Edmund the little Judas to Peter Penvensie. JKR puts Draco through 
the wringer in Book VI, and giving him outside pressure for his actions, so 
I think she is making him suffer for his crimes in a way I find more 
interesting than a defiant Draco being in jail, for instance. Harry's last 
thought of Draco is, while still despising him, to feel pity for him.

As to whether Draco could only hope to be lower than how Harry started out, 
I wouldn't be surprised if that's how he ended up but objectively I don't 
see why that should be the way he had to wind up.  Given where Draco starts 
out in canon he could absolutely become a better man than Harry, as could a 
lot of people.  Morality isn't a set thing were you just are good or bad.

Also, I agree with AD that a second chance from Dumbledore almost always 
carries with it a price.  Maybe not a price that DD forces you to pay 
literally, but look at his second chance people--they're working their butts 
off for him, sometimes in more dangerous ways than they might have done 
otherwise. That's another thing I thought was important in the way JKR set 
up the end of HBP.  Dumbledore offers to hide Draco and his family. 
Hiding--it implies to me that Draco gets to just be like a kid and be 
protected by others.  Sure it's a hardship like the witness protection 
program, but it's not making up for what he did.

But he doesn't get that.  The DEs come in and the choice is taken away.  I 
think it's to offer him a harder choice in the next book.  Come to our 
side--and make yourself useful. If you're going to come to our side you have 
to actively choose our side, not just our protection. Where Dumbledore might 
have been seeking to neutralize the Malfoys, Harry may demand more, which 
could be a good thing.

Lupinlore:
No less than DD himself assured him that he need not be particularly 
grateful, as Snape was only trying to get out from under a debt to James.

So, no less than the "epitome of goodness" himself has laid any gratitude 
Harry might (I think inappropriately) feel toward Snape to rest.  Nor has DD 
ever really tried to bring the subject up again.  His defense of Snape is, 
at best, passive, with the possible
exception of the end of OOTP where even there he makes no real attempt to 
defend Snape in the Occlumency affair.

Magpie:
I suspect if we were seeing DD interact with Snape we'd see the same 
attitude about Harry, though, where DD never told Snape that he had to treat 
him more kindly or defended him in the Occlumency affair.  DD doesn't force 
people to feel the way he thinks they should feel.  I didn't get the 
impression in PS that DD was at all telling Harry why he didn't need to be 
grateful to Snape for saving his life--knowing Snape had done so would have 
to be enough for that.  Either Harry would be grateful for not.  I thought 
DD was just trying to get Harry to understand Snape.

-m