[HPforGrownups] Re: Being Good and Evil ( Draco and a bit of Ron)/

[rebecca]

No: HPFGUIDX 154775

> Magpie:
> And you're suggesting that that is the equivalent of letting people know
> that they're pledging personal loyalty upon pain of disfigurement to the
> group?  Do you think that's how Voldemort gets people into the Death 
> Eaters?
> " 'I - I think everybody should get a tattoo, just so we know who was 
> here.
> But I also think,' [takes a deep breath] 'that we all ought to agree not 
> to
> shout about what we're doing. So if you get your tattoo, you're agreeing 
> not
> to tell Dumbledore or anybody else what we're up to.'

Rebecca:

Nope, that's not how Voldemort inducts folks into the Dark Eater Hall of 
Infamy. He does it by fear and intimidation instead, although I gotta agree 
there's a certain amount of coersion and manipulation. There is a parallel 
in canon though, where Sirius states it's a lifetime of service or death, 
and you can't "quit" being a DE (least according to his words in OoP when 
describing Regulus.)

>Magpie:

> snip>

> But they're NOT committed to a cause, they're just joining a study group.
> Hermione's roping them into her own personal vision any way she can.  When
> you default on a car loan you've been told what the consequences are.
> Hermione doesn't tell anyone the real stakes.  You don't agree with Cho
> thinking it was a dirty trick of Hermione's, but Cho is a DA member and 
> she
> obviously does.

<snip>

>She doesn't inspire the loyalty to start a group like that,
> which is why she presents it as a study group and the Parchment as just
> agreeing not to tell on the group as opposed to a blood vow with 
> punishment
> (and needs Harry as leader).

Rebecca:

For a study group, it sure has a lot of importance, doesn't it? This is 
where we differ,  I think, because I see the following and wonder if it 
really is a study group to pass an OWL:

'You want to pass your Defence Against the Dark Arts OWL too, though, I 
bet?' said Michael Corner, who was watching her closely.


'Of course I do,' said Hermione at once. 'But more than that, I want to be 
properly trained in defence because. because." she took a great breath and 
finished, 'because Lord Voldemort is back.'


'Well, they've forbidden me to get on the wrong side of Umbridge, too,' said 
Cho, drawing herself up proudly. 'But if they think I'm not going to fight 
You-Know-Who after what happened to Cedric -'



'Oh, please,' said Zacharias Smith, rolling his eyes and folding his arms. 
'I don't think Expelliarmus is exactly going to help us against 
You-Know-Who, do you?



"The attack might have succeeded had it not been for the fact that they 
unwittingly chose to stage the attack right outside a compartment full of DA 
members, who saw what was happening through the glass and rose as one to 
rush to Harry's aid. By the time Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan 
Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot had finished 
using a wide variety of the hexes and jinxes Harry had taught them, Malfoy 
Crabbe and Goyle resembled nothing so much as three gigantic slugs squeezed 
into Hogwarts uniform...."

Interestingly enough, that group served to bring together those from 
different houses - and some of those relationships remain even after school, 
at least that year.  And you're right, it wasn't the Order of the Phoenix 
for Harry, or any of them, even Hermoine. However there is a lot of focus on 
Voldemort being back and the students comment on being able to "fight" 
against him.  My comparison is for ethics sake, not saying that the DA was 
the equivalent. The Order is based on such values as trust, loyalty, courage 
and honor, and as Lupin says:

"The Order is comprised only of overage wizards,' he said. 'Wizards who have 
left school,' he added, as Fred and George opened their mouths. "There are 
dangers involved of which you can have no idea, any of you. I think Molly's 
right, Sirius. We've said enough."



I'll be flamed by many for saying at this point, but the Weasley Twins, Ron, 
Harry are too young in the beginning of OoP to understand these concepts 
fully and the dangers involved if one person in the Order violates the 
trust. The last time it happened, at the very least Harry's parents died if 
not others prior to that as a result of 1 person's betrayal. (It's not 
discounting youth, it's just a question of life experience.) Hermoine's 
actions, while uncomfortable for some, reveal to me that she has learned 
that not everyone can be trusted and tries to avert disclosure at the very 
least. I believe this because I think some thought had to be put into the 
parchment, jinx, and the approach and begets the question "why?" IMO, see 
the aforementioned sentence.



>Magpie:
> Ironically, In HBP the war really does come to Hogwarts--Voldemort is
> working at the school (as opposed to Umbridge who represented a slightly
> different evil, one that personally annoyed Hermione) and Hermione has
> nothing to do with stopping it.
<snip>

Rebecca:

I'm sorry, Voldemort is working at the school? I must have misunderstood 
what you're trying to say, as I wasn't aware he working there.

 >Magpie:
> I mean, if you compare this to Peter it seems to me opposite every which
> way.  Peter spent years earning the trust that rested on him, and there 
> was
> no punishment for him if he broke the trust.  The priorities of the Order
> seem to be exactly the opposite of the way they are with Marietta.

Rebecca:

I don't know about Peter not getting any punishment for violation of his 
friends' trust whether he earned the trust in the past or not;  LV says it 
far better than me:

"You returned to me, not out of loyalty, but out of fear of your old 
friends"

He lost everything that mattered, didn't he?

He may not have signed a contract, but he sure paid didn't he? And note, 
he's no longer in the OoP.  Somehow, I think Peter's situation is far worse 
than Marietta's.