Snape saves Harry (or does he?)

[Peggy Richter]

No: HPFGUIDX 154880

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wynnleaf" <fairwynn at ...> it 
would depend on just how high up he was when he fell. 


PAR: yes. But Cannon says the broom was rising SLOWLY. The twins are 
already below Harry to catch him.  It can't have been THAT high 
since the next action is where Harry catches the Snitch on the 
ground.  

> wynnleaf> The basic principles of physics, etc., tend to mean that 
people  falling from larger heights often are seriously injured or 
die. 

PAR: Actually, there is a set distance beyond which it doesn't 
matter (terminal velocity). Since we know you can "crash" into the 
ground (Q World Cup with Lynch) and fall from much greater heights 
(Neville, both in falling off the broom and bouncing when dropped 
from the window) AND we know that Harry has had the ability to 
levitate (when he did so at muggle school) -- all of which makes 
wizards much more resiliant to falling (or any other accident) than 
humans.  Note Hagrid's disbelief regarding a wizard dying in a car 
crash.  In this case, we are dealing with acceleration = force.  If  
you are accelerating into the ground (as Lynch does during the world 
cup), you hit harder than if you just "fall" (where you reach what's 
called a terminal velocity).  Thus Lynch hit the ground harder 
(since he was racing to catch the snitch -- or at least thought he 
was) than Harry would have from simply falling.  It is the principal 
behind which Automotive crash tests are performed (hitting an object 
at 20 MPH is not as damaging as hitting one while going 50 MPH). If 
Harry had just Fallen, he would have only fallen at a set speed 
based on his mass. That speed is slower than if he'd sped into the 
ground. JKR has had a basic English education if I am not mistaken.  
If this principal is one that is a "standard" in high school in the 
US, I have a hard time believing "maths" or not, that she doesn't 
understand it.  Her writing is very clear that she understands a 
great deal more science than she lets on.

I am therefore convinced that simply falling from his broom would 
not have killed Harry, even if the twins failed to catch him or 
McGonagall / Hootch failed to act.  In the case of POA, Harry is 
disabled by dementors necessitating DD taking a more active role.  
Here, he is likely to have managed to survive even if no one took 
the action DD did.  (note that Dobby thinks Harry can survive being 
hit with an iron bludger.  Not something your average Muggle would 
live through).  

winnleaf:  Certainly we find examples in the WW of magic helping 
people live  (like Neville bouncing), but no one simply assumes that 
will happen.  Otherwise, Quirrel's attempt to toss Harry off the 
broom would have  been completely pointless.

== I think it was. Quirrel might have managed to hurt Harry (Neville 
after all, has a broken wrist from his fall), but yes, I do think 
Quirrel throughout the SS/PS was pretty ineffectual.  You'd have to 
be to be beaten by 3 kids aged 11.

Winnleaf: Voldemort of all people would know whether or not throwing 
someone off  a broom would have chance at killing them.

PAR: there's nothing in cannon saying that LV told Quirrel to get 
rid of Harry or that LV gave any advice to him regarding the broom. 
In fact, the evidence is that LV doesn't find Quirrel to be a very 
good tool -- "I have let him down many times..." as Quirrel himself 
says.  It is on the same level as Draco and the necklace in HBP 
thinking somehow he will kill DD with it.

Winnleaf: However, after Harry's patronus  chases off the dementors, 
Harry and friends, and Sirius are all  unconscious 

PAR: there's no evidence Herimone is unconscious, even assuming 
after being chased off by Buckbeak that the werewolf would even be 
in that part of the forest.

 wynnleaf:(snip) While we don't know exactly what Snape  would have 
done if there had been further danger after the Stupify, he  was 
shown in the foe-glass as an "enemy" of Crouch, Jr (snip) 

PAR: certainly Snape is an enemy of Crouch Jr. He could be one in a 
number of his varieties.  But that doesn't mean Snape saved Harry - 
DD did that in this instance.  I am just looking for actual cannon 
evidence that Snape actually HAS saved Harry. There have been a 
number of posts on this site indicating Harry lacks gratitude to 
Snape for Snape saving Harry.  I would like one unambiguous incident 
where Snape has done so.


 wynnleaf:  He did not simply notify the Order that Harry and 
friends were missing
> (which, by the way, he could have done).  He told the Order to go 
to
> the MOM, *and* he told the Order to alert DD and send him, too.

PAR: I believe Cannon says that DD went to Kreature and then to MOM. 
And if Harry has stated that he believes Sirius is at the MOM and 
needs rescue, Harry is not in Hogwarts, Not in the forest and not at 
Grimauld Place, by simple process of elimination he is likely to be 
at MOM.  Further, since Harry has had one case of alerting the OOP 
to a problem (Arthur and the snake), it would be wise to check out 
the MOM regardless -- which is, in fact, all Snape really has the 
order do.  HE didn't save Harry.  Sending someone else (Sirius) to 
do it instead would not eliminate the life debt.
PAR