[HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Hermione

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 154891

Eggplant:
> Umbridge had taken away the right of assembly and the right of free
> speech,

Magpie:
At school.  Not in their country.  I don't agree with it, but I don't think 
it's illegal for someone to make that rule at a school.  The school already 
restricts their freedom more than they are on the outside.

Eggplant:
 she has demonstrated that she is willing to torture student,> she had 
already tried to kill one student (Harry) and in a> particularly horrible 
way too, so exactly what part of this analogy is> exaggerated?

Magpie:
>From the pov of students in the school. It's a school, not a country, her 
trying to kill Harry isn't known by anyone until the end, nor does she 
torture Harry publically.  She only whips out Crucio at the end.  Marietta 
can, imo, believably think that
she's still at school and this is a Headmistress from the Ministry.  That's 
not an occupying government it's the actual government, the same one that 
Dumbledore has worked with and many of the kids' parents work for.

I see the analogy working in a limited way, of course, since to us 
Dumbledore=Hogwarts just as the true King=the country, and I think the 
students are right to be disturbed by Umbridge's rules on principle.  It's 
not like I'm trying to defend what Umbridge does.  But I
don't think everyone in the school would be able to see it the same way 
immediately--especially not the only way it's really on that level in canon, 
which is to punish anyone who tells about the DA through disfigurement. The 
DA kids actually don't suffer any of the imagined punishments that are being 
used to justify Marietta's suffering (not that it's her suffering that keeps 
them from these punishments).

Eggplant:
> And I might add that the DA wasn't just a anti Umbridge organization
> it was an anti Voldemort organization too, but if Umbridge had her way
> they wouldn't even know how to defend themselves from him.

Magpie:
Yes, it was kind of grey exactly what it was, and I realize where Umbridge's 
line of thinking went, but this isn't a discussion about whether we think 
the DA was a good idea or not.  It was a good idea for the kids to teach 
themselves DADA and I can sympathize with them on being ratted on, even if 
they didn't take good precautions against it.

Eggplant:
Now maybe
> Marietta didn't realize the seriousness of the situation but Harry did
> and so did Hermione, this is not a game this is life and death.


Magpie:
If Marietta didn't realize the seriousness of it that would be a problem 
with the whole set up.  Had she understood the group the way the others did, 
or maybe even understood the world situation the way they did, she might 
never have told on them.  Seeing as nobody dies as a result of this isolated 
thread in the story, it's a life or death game in a very abstract way.
Harry may have realized the seriousness, but he had nothing to do with the 
hex and didn't demand one.

Eggplant:
> The leader of this silly little kids organization had faced Voldemort
> 4 times and defeated him 4 times, and that is cool indeed because
> nobody else can say that or anything close to it, not even Dumbledore.

Magpie:
I've read the books, I know what Harry's done.  But this has nothing to do 
with Marietta's pov or experience.  Harry's pov kind of naturally gives him
a different perspective, right?  I think that brings him frustration in HBP 
as well. That's life or death, but people aren't listening.

Eggplant:
> Other members of this silly little kids group have also shown their
> courage and faced challenges that few member of the Order Of The
> Phoenix have.And Marietta betrayed them all.

Magpie:
I'm suspicious of the emotional appeal.  That doesn't seem directly relevent 
to me.  If Harry and his friends were less fabulous would that change her 
betrayal?

Renee:
Secondly, has it occurred to anyone else that the whole Marietta vs.the DA 
episode may be meant to mirror Wormtail vs. the first Order of the Phoenix,
with Umbridge in the role of Voldemort?

Magpie:
Not really, no, not to me.  Peter was an adult who knowingly sentenced his 
long time best friends to death and did it to save himself.  Marietta rats 
people out, but that's about the only parallel I can see. We don't know that 
Marietta's acting because she thinks Umbridge "will prevail."  I don't even 
know what that would mean.  There's also a lot of cues that she's never been 
trying to beat Umbridge to begin with.  If I were going to compare her to 
someone I'd probably to with Percy even more than Peter, despite the fact
that Percy is choosing against his family.

-m