Evil Hermione, and Traitor Marietta

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 154943

> Lanval:
> Hey, some on this list would call this kind of argument a cop-
out. :)
> But I do agree with you that we probably give Marietta's character
> more thought than the author ever did. I've always had a sneaking
> suspicion that JKR's writing, intentions and utterances are at
times
> much more straightforward and simple than Fandom would like.

Magpie:
Could be a cop out, true.:-) But my point was just that I think 
we're given consistent reasons for Marietta's actions with her 
loyalty to the Ministry. Whether or not one feels sympathy for her 
doesn't seem as important. When I said JKR wasn't trying to drum up 
sympathy I didn't mean that poor Marietta only lacks sympathy 
because her author didn't give her any, I was just more saying that 
the lack of scenes where Marietta is conflicted and going to her 
mother did not give me any reason to doubt her basic situation as 
it's told to us. There seemed to be the suggestion that since we 
don't see it, maybe there was some other reason.  I think that since 
this is a minor character there's little reason not to go with what 
we've got, even if it's told and not shown.  If that's later proved 
wrong I'll change my mind on it.

> > Magpie:
> > Which just would have meant she got marked and they got outed a
few
> weeks
> > earlier. I don't see why that would matter in the context it's
> being spoken
> > about here.
> >
>
> Lanval:
> Note that I didn't write: "that would have been the time for
Marietta
> to rat out her friends".
>
> It would have been the perfect time for her to decide whether she
> wanted to stay involved with the DA. Telling and, as a result,
> getting marked, is in no way the single logical result of that
> decision. All options are still open to her.

Magpie:
Yes, she definitely could have just stopped going. She seemed to 
feel she should. Or she wanted to tell, or whatever. It was 
certainly her choice to tell on the DA. I would never say
that she had no other options or that her mother's job even
predicted she would do that.

> Lanval:
> Just because other scenarios in HP might also fit the metaphor
does
> in no way diminish this particular one. Oh, and Umbridge is not
> Headmistress at any time the DA is in existence.

Magpie:
Sorry, you're right, she's not. My bad. But still I think the
word "tyrant" is being used as a metaphor. There's new rules at
school coming from the Ministry and Marietta alerts Umbridge to rule-
breakers.


> Lanval:
> It seems to me that expulsion is a far more serious punishment in
the
> WW than in RL. And the kids are old enough, and have seen and
heard
> enough, to realize that these moronic new rules not only endanger
> their grades and thus their future, but might actually endanger
their
> very lives.
>
> No, I DO think they're seeing the big picture here. This isn't
about
> a group of silly kids being miffed at bothersome new rules imposed
by
> a strict teacher.

Magpie:
I never meant to imply that was what it was. I agree with the view
that the rules endanger their grades and are harmful to their
future. What I am saying is that the fact that Hermione sees the big
picture does not mean that everyone who shows up at the Hog's Head
sees it that way. They all eventually decide to do something that
risks their expulsion in joining the DA. Some of them might have 
truly thought that through and some might not have.

I feel like I'm coming across as arguing against the DA, which I'm 
not. I don't think Marietta was right to turn them in.

> Lanval:
> Again, then why doesn't she just stop attending? Is there no
middle
> ground between disapproving of something, and getting everyone
> involved into serious trouble? Does she value Umbridge and the
> ministry so much more than her best friend's trust, friendship,
and
> future?

Magpie:
I can see a great deal of middle ground between the two things and I
think she had lots of other options open to her. What she did was
to tell. In saying what I think her situation was I don't mean she 
had no control over what she did. I'm not defending Marietta's 
decisions as right or saying she had no choice. I think from what we 
see Marietta is shown to always be uncomfortable with the DA, and 
eventually she tells on them. I'm just looking at what we know about 
why she acted the way she did given plenty of other options.

> > Magpie:
> > Only she didn't want out and she didn't need someone to confide
in
> (she
> > seems to have already been talking to Cho). She wanted the DA
> outed and to
> > put a stop to it, and that's what she did.
>
> Lanval:
>
> Which does not reflect very well on her, does it?

Magpie:
No, it doesn't. I didn't mean it to reflect well on her.



> Lanval:

> So there are two entirely separate questions here: how do we judge
> Hermione's hex, and its effect on Marietta, and how do we judge
> Marietta's betrayal.

Magpie:
I agree. And whether we feel sympathy for Marietta or Hermione is
yet another issue, I think. If Marietta had shown herself to be
deeply morally conflicted, as you said, she might have been more
sympathetic. But she still would have done the same thing. Had
Hermione been shown to feel horrible that the hex lasted as long as
it did perhaps she would seem more sympathetic than she does now to
some, but that wouldn't really change what she did.

Seeing Marietta repentent would give some satisfaction, though I
think that too would be independent of Hermione's hex. With the hex
it would probably be a forced repentence--she's not sorry she ratted
out the group, she's sorry she got a face full of acne. This seems
to be the kind of thing Dumbledore tries to avoid.

I don't feel overly sympathetic to Marietta in canon. Her story
basically left me pretty cold because it seemed so obvious from the
first meeting she was going to betray the group. My biggest
emotional reaction was just a knee-jerk feeling that I'd be pissed
off if anybody tricked me into signing a hexed parchment, even while
I didn't think I would have done what Marietta did. (And a year or
so later I am kind of amazed Hermione can live with seeing her like
that!) The main reason I've continued to think about the hex is
that I think it might come up later and that's why JKR has kept it
around.

-m