Evil Hermione, and Traitor Marietta

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 154941

> > Alla:
> >
> > No, to me it would not have complicate matters, just as to me it
> > would not have complicated matters to bring in Cedric parents for 
no
> > other purpose than to show more grief.
> > If Marietta went to her mother, I would saw conflicted girl, 
someone
> > who is concerned about her family and who is between rock and the
> > hard place.
> 
> Magpie:
 JKR isn't trying to set up 
> sympathy for Marietta.  She just needs her to out the DA.   JKR 
went the 
> most obvious way for a good scene.

Lanval:
Hey, some on this list would call this kind of argument a cop-out. :) 
But I do agree with you that we probably give Marietta's character 
more thought than the author ever did. I've always had a sneaking 
suspicion that JKR's writing, intentions and utterances are at times 
much more straightforward and simple than Fandom would like. 



> 
> Lanval:
> A mere few days later, the DA most certainly was illegal, and 
therefore more 
> secret than ever.
> THAT would have been the time for Marietta to decide whether she 
wanted to 
> continue.
> 
> Magpie:
> Which just would have meant she got marked and they got outed a few 
weeks 
> earlier.  I don't see why that would matter in the context it's 
being spoken 
> about here.
> 

Lanval:
Note that I didn't write: "that would have been the time for Marietta 
to rat out her friends". 

It would have been the perfect time for her to decide whether she 
wanted to stay involved with the DA. Telling and, as a result, 
getting marked, is in no way the single logical result of that 
decision. All options are still open to her.



> Magpie:
> The disagreement about whether or not this is a "secret 
organization against 
> a tyrant" is one, imo, of metaphor.  Yes, Umbridge is a tyrant of a 
> Headmistress.  So could Snape be described as being a tyrant in 
Harry's 
> Potion class, I think, but how far does the metaphor go?  


Lanval:
Just because other scenarios in HP might also fit the metaphor does 
in no way diminish this particular one. Oh, and Umbridge is not 
Headmistress at any time the DA is in existence. 



> Magpie:
Hermione's being 
> excited to see herself as fighting against a tyrant doesn't mean 
that's the 
> way all the kids literally see it, and the problem is that it goes 
back and 
> forth--even Hermione pulls back when talking to the other kids.  
Yes, the 
> kids are worried about being found out--but not for the same 
reasons one 
> would worry about being discovered by occupying Nazis in France, 
right? 
> They'd worry about school punishments, letters home, suspension, 
maybe even 
> expulsion.  The normal things you'd worry about in dealing with a 
strict 
> headmistress in school.  They're disobeying the new school rules.

Lanval:
It seems to me that expulsion is a far more serious punishment in the 
WW than in RL. And the kids are old enough, and have seen and heard 
enough, to realize that these moronic new rules not only endanger 
their grades and thus their future, but might actually endanger their 
very lives. 

No, I DO think they're seeing the big picture here. This isn't about 
a group of silly kids being miffed at bothersome new rules imposed by 
a strict teacher.


> 
> Magpie:
> She certainly has free will and we definitely have no reason to 
think she 
> believes the Ministry can do no wrong.  We do only know that her 
mother 
> works for the Ministry and that, according to Cho, this was part of 
why she 
> had a problem with the DA.  I think the indications are that it's 
not just 
> about her disobeying her mother--she's never comfortable with the 
DA that I 
> remember.  So I think it's implied it's not her mother but also 
Marietta who 
> doesn't like the DA.


Lanval:
Again, then why doesn't she just stop attending? Is there no middle 
ground between disapproving of something, and getting everyone 
involved into serious trouble? Does she value Umbridge and the 
ministry so much more than her best friend's trust, friendship, and 
future?



> Magpie:
> Only she didn't want out and she didn't need someone to confide in 
(she 
> seems to have already been talking to Cho).  She wanted the DA 
outed and to 
> put a stop to it, and that's what she did. 

Lanval:

Which does not reflect very well on her, does it? 

> Magpie: 
 How important it is that we have 
> sympathy for her is another question--maybe a very interesting one!


Lanval:

Interesting indeed. Brings up all sorts of questions about ethical 
values...
 
Let me clarify something here: whether I have sympathy for Marietta 
does NOT depend on whether I think Hermione's hex was right, wrong, 
deserved, evil or stupid. Neither have Rowling's intentions, her 
preferences, or which characters she wants us to like/dislike 
anything to do with my feelings about Marietta.

We've already established that the hex turned out to be ultimately 
useless, because it did nothing to alert the DA (though it of course 
would have been effective in the case of a spy). The Hex does not 
change the plot one bit. 

So there are two entirely separate questions here: how do we judge 
Hermione's hex, and its effect on Marietta, and how do we judge 
Marietta's betrayal. 

IF Marietta had shown herself to be deeply morally conflicted, and 
had asked for the support of her mother, her Head of House, or her 
best friend, she would get some sympathy from me. (Btw, I think it's 
complete speculation to say that her mother would have automatically 
pressured her to tell Umbridge, or gone to Umbridge herself! We know 
nothing of mom, except that she works at the ministry and does not 
want her daughter to cross Umbridge). 

IF she had shown that her primary interest was not getting the others 
in trouble, then I'd be able to work up some sympathy. 

Again: Hermione -- tried her best, may have overreached, was pretty 
sneaky and perhaps overly vengeful with the hex. Do I have sympathy 
for her? Yes.

Marietta: betrayed her best friend and schoolmates. To Umbridge, of 
all people. Hex or no hex -- it doesn't take away from her actions 
and her motives. Sympathy for her? No. Not for the way she handled it.

There's logically a third question: do I feel sympathy for Marietta 
still being disfigured in HPB? I do. She's after all still very 
young, and will have (one hopes) learned her lesson.

Hope this clears it up.

Lanval