Accidental Harrycrux with a Bloodsucking Snake (long)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 155084

Neri wrote:
> There seem to be two main varieties of the Harrycrux theory: the
intentional and accidental. Intentional Harrycrux assumes that it was
Voldy's intent to make Harry his Horcrux in GH, which would imply that
Voldy *knows* that Harry is a Horcrux.
>
> Personally it doesn't seem logical to me that Voldemort would try to
kill a baby that he had just made his Horcrux <snip>

Carol responds:
At least we agree on this much. The whole point of going to Godric's
Hollow was to thwart the Prophecy by killing Harry. Voldemort *may*
have intended to make a last Horcrux *using* Harry's murder (that's
speculation on DD's part), but it's most unlikely that he intended to
make Harry himself--or his corpse--into a Horcrux. We know that he
prefers solid objects, preferably made of gold so they'll last forever
(the ring, the locket, and the cup are all made of gold; the diary had
a different purpose) and with powerful magic of their own (even the
diary was powerfully magical in its own right before it was made into
a Horcrux). He does not make Horcruxes out of the rotting corpses of
his victims or even their skulls. It's canon that he tried to kill
Harry and that he wanted (and wants) him dead. Deliberately making him
a Horcrux is antithetical to this established intention.

Neri:
and this is why I tend more to the Accidental Harrycrux variety. This
one basically assumes that, as Dumbledore says, Voldy was intending to
make his last Horcrux with Harry's murder, but he splitted his soul
over murdering Lily, and when he lost his body because of the
rebounding AK the other released soul part entered baby Harry.

Carol responds:
As I said before, there's no evidence whatever that Horcruxes
can be created accidentally. Slughorn says that the wizard who intends
to create a Horcrux splits his soul through the act of murder and
encases the soul bit in an object using a spell. Obviously the
encasing has to occur *after* the murder that splits the soul. There
is no preparatory spell, or at least no evidence for one. So once
Voldemort had hit Harry with the AK and the AK burst out of him,
causing the lightning-shaped cut that later healed into a scar, and
rebounded onto Voldemort, separating his soul from his body without
killing him because of the five or six extant Horcruxes, he could not
possibly perform the spell to create a Horcrux, and there's no way
that a spell can be performed accidentally. The wand required to cast
the spell was lying useless on the ground. Voldemort was vaporized
and helpless, with only one power left to him, that of possession, by
his own account. 

Meanwhile, some of his powers somehow entered Harry through the cut.
Admittedly we don't know the mechanism. But the spell that would
actually remove one of the soul bits that had been split off by the
murders of James and Lily (and how many others?) and encase it in an
object (surely not Harry) had not been performed. Believe it if you
want to, but there's no logic to it and no evidence for it that I can
see. All we know is that Voldemort was vaporized and Harry (who wasn't
killed because of Lily's sacrifice) somehow acquired some of
Voldemort's powers. We also know that the spell to create a Horcrux
from Harry's murder was not performed because Harry wasn't dead and
Voldemort was wandless and vaporized, separated from his body by the
deflected AK. And that's *all* we know. Everything else, including all
varieties of Horcrux!Harry, is speculation.

Neri:
This Variety assumes that Voldy does *not* know that Harry is his
Horcrux.
>
> Or doesn't he?
>
> What if Voldemort indeed did not intend to make Harry a Horcrux in
the first place, but he *had* realized that later, or at least he has
come to suspect that Harry is now his Horcrux? What if all his major
plans and actions in the last books have actually been shaped by that
knowledge/suspicion?

Carol:
First, you're taking the accidental Horcrux for granted here (though I
understand that you need to do so to extend the speculation). And
second, you're overlooking Voldemort's very real motives for killing
Harry, neither of which requires Harry to be a Horcrux: Harry is the
Prophecy Boy destined (in LV's view) to kill Voldemort or be killed by
him (obviously LV prefers the latter), and Harry has thwarted or
escaped from Voldemort four times. Voldemort wants him dead by his own
hand so that he can prove that he's the most powerful wizard in the
land. IOW, he has the same motive he had when he went to Godric's
Hollow in the first place as well as a second motive multiplied by four.

Neri:
> Assume for a minute that sometime after GH (say, after SS/PS too, to
make things simpler) Vapor!Mort realizes or suspects that Harry became
his Horcrux in GH. What would he do about it?
>
> If he simply kills Harry he'd lose this sixth Horcrux and remain
with only five.

Carol:
Exactly. And from a plot standpoint, Voldemort would be invincible
with Harry dead if he still had even one other Horcrux. Or, if the
other Horcruxes were destroyed, LV would at least be the clear winner,
and IMO that's not going to happen. And we have the opposite
problem--if Harry is a Horcrux and he kills or destroys Voldemort, all
we have is a standoff. Voldemort will be vaporized, but he'll return.
Stand by for the sequel, or the next seven sequels, in which
Adult!Harry again faces Voldemort and finally sacrifices himself. Not
going to happen. JKR herself says that Book 7 will be the last book,
and the war will end before the epilogue. One way or another, the
Prophecy will be fulfilled.

Neri:
Of course, he can try creating another Horcrux later, as Dumbledore
suggests he had done with Nagini. But that would mean splitting his
soul again, so the total number of pieces would be eight, not seven,
one of them lost forever. I don't think this option would appeal to
Voldemort at all.

Carol responds:
Nor do I. Voldemort already knows that the diary has been destroyed,
but he's unlikely to replace it because that would mean creating a
seventh Horcrux. One of the soul bits *is* lost forever and he knows
it. (Actually two of them are, but he doesn't know that.) But I agree
that the number of bits of soul actually separated from the main soul
(as opposed to being split off by the act of murder since he's
committed more than six murders) will remain the same. Otherwise, the
Horcruxes become a Hydra-headed monster that Harry can never defeat.

Neri:
What he'd really want to do would be
> to rescue his seven soul parts project. The preferred option from
his point of view would be to somehow retrieve his seventh soul part
that is now embedded in Harry, and encase it in another Horcrux of his
choice, most probably Nagini.

Carol responds:
But he's already lost one soul bit that he knows about, the one in the
diary. He can't "rescue his seven-part project" because the diary soul
bit is irretrievably lost. So even if there were a soul bit in Harry
(which he's treated rather cavalierly, considering all his attempts to
kill him), there would be no point in retrieving it. He'd have at best
a "six-part project" (actually five, but he doesn't know about the ring).

Neri:
Is it possible for him to manage such a thing? And how?
<snip>
> In GoF it is stressed several times in different places that Voldy
had meant to feed Harry's body to Nagini after he kills him in the
graveyard. This is first suggested in Harry's "dream": <snip quotes>

Carol:
Yes, but as the snipped quotes indicate, LV intends to feed Harry to
Nagini in place of Wormtail, who would have been killed and fed to
Nagini as punishment for his blunder. Voldemort is consoling his pet,
telling her that she can eat the boy instead when Voldemort is through
with him, one body in place of another. Or are you suggesting that
Wormtail might be a Horcrux, too? (Pippin thinks so, but she's working
from an ESE!Lupin perspective that most of us don't share.)

Neri:
> So I'd say it's not only established but also stressed that Harry
was to be fed to Nagini after being killed.

Carol:
Your quotes certainly show that LV intends to feed Harry to Nagini
(all the more reason for Harry to fight her, whether or not she's a
Horcrux). They add nothing to your argument that Harry is a Horcrux.
(BTW, since Dumbledore says that LV used Nagini to kill or hlep kill
Frank Bryce, maybe Nagini ate the old man after LV killed him?)

Neri:
> But fed in what manner?
<snip>
> Nagini's venom has a very interesting property – it prevents blood
> from clotting. During her attack on Arthur in OotP it is repeatedly
> stressed how much blood Arthur has lost:
<snip>
> he reared high from the floor and struck once, twice, three times,
> plunging his fangs deeply into the mans flesh, feeling his ribs
> splinter beneath his jaws, feeling the warm gush of blood . . .
<snip>

Carol:
These quotes establish that Nagini bites her victims and that her
venom has magical properties that prevent the wounds from healing
(very odd, then, that somehow it has restorative properties for
Voldemort himself--unless, of course, *she's* his Horcrux). They do
not establish that "feeding" equals blood-sucking. All snakes swallow
their prey whole. The simpler reading is that Nagini, like the
Basilisk, would have had Harry for dinner when Voldemort (or
Diary!Tom) was finished with him.

(BTW, someone was questioning Nagini's lifespan being thirteen years
or longer. It's clear from Neri's quotes that she's a magical snake.
If a Basilisk can live for a thousand years, Nagini can certainly live
for at least as long as a man. In RL, a boa constrictor, which I
realize is nonpoisonous, can live for 25 to 30 years, and a cobra for
20 years. Nagini, being powerfully magical, would probably live much 
longer.)
>
Neri:
Is it possible to > retrieve such a soul part by sucking the victim's
blood? <snip>
>
Carol:
Since you haven't established that Nagini sucks her victims' blood,
the question seems irrelevant, or at least, youre wandering farther
and farther into the realm of speculation.

Neri:
> In HBP Voldemort warns his minions not to kill Harry even if they
get the chance. Voldy must kill Harry himself.

Carol:
Or so Snape says. Snape may be using Voldemort's orders to save
Harry's life, or he may be presenting a reason for sparing Harry that
the DEs will believe. We never actually hear LV say so, though I agree
that he probably did.

Neri:
Why? Is it just Voldemort's pride on the line here?

Carol:
*Just* Voldemort's pride? Harry is the Prophecy boy, and Voldmort has
tried to kill him numerous times, usually bragging along the lines of
"We'll see who's the most powerful wizard now." I'd say he has every
reason to want to kill Harry personally, especially since Snape has
killed DD, the other wizard with a great reputation. Would he want to
appear weaker than, or dependent on, Snape, much less a DE of the
Amycus/Alecto variety? He wants to establish once and for all that
he's the most powerful wizard in the WW so he can rule through fear.

Neri:
Or maybe it is also crucial that Nagini would get the chance to suck
the blood out of Harry's body immediately after his death, before it
can clot?
>
Carol:
See above. This is an ingenious idea, Neri, and certainly an original
one, but it doesn't stand up to examination.

Neri:
> But wait a minute (I hear some of you saying), Dumbledore said that
> Voldemort had made Nagini his last Horcrux, didn't he?
>
> No, he didn't.
>
> In JKR's best sneaky style, Dumbledore actually never says
explicitly that Nagini is already a Horcrux *now*. He doesn't even
hypothesize it, exactly. <snip quote>

> That does not necessarily mean that Voldemort had already turned her
into his last Horcrux, only that the idea had *occurred* to him. Note
that Dumbledore also seems to imply here that Frank was the murder
used to make Nagini a Horcrux, but again, very sneakily, he does not
say it *explicitly*. JKR only lets us assume that this is what he
means. Moreover, Frank being the death that made Nagini a Horcrux
wouldn't sit well with another thing that Dumbledore says only one
paragraph before:
>
> *******************************************************
> He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for
> particularly significant deaths.
> *******************************************************
>
> Frank, and old muggle retainer, would hardly be a particularly
> significant death for Voldemort.

Carol:
We agree here. Frank Bryce is not a significant death, and JKR is
being sneaky. I think, however, that Nagini was *already* a Horcrux,
which would account not only for Voldemort's snakelike features, which
apparently predate Godric's Hollow, but for the life-sustaining
properties of her otherwise deadly venom for Voldemort alone. (Cf. the
potion used to create Baby!mort and the use of her venom as its "food.")

Neri:
> Well, not really a clue, more of a hunch, but what's with all these
> blood hints, anyway? Does this have any connection with Voldemort
> using a bit of Harry's blood for his resurrection? Does it have
> anything to do with the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes?

Carol:
I think you're right that the properties of Nagini's venom are
important, but I don't think they have anything to do with the
twinkle. We've already seen Harry rescued from death after a wound
from the fang of a deadly poisonous magical snake. Maybe we'll see a
reprise of Fawkes's tears and the Sword of Gryffindor in the battle
against Horcrux!Nagini.

Carol, who thinks that Nagini may well be a magical variant of a king
cobra and that JKR would have established her vampirelike properties
by now if she had any