[HPforGrownups] Traitors, friends, loyalty and betrayal (was Evil Hermione) long

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 155117

> Nikkalmati:
> Lanval touched on the central question regarding Marietta and  Hermione. 
> Two
> virtues appear to be paramount in Potterverse: courage and  loyalty.  The
> Marietta incident is just one example of betrayal found  throughout the 
> books and
> I think it has to be seen in conjunction with all the  other incidents.
> The books begin with a huge act of betrayal by Pettigrew for the base 
> motive
> of saving his own skin, thus, an act against both courage and  loyalty.
> Sirius is the opposite character in this scenario, displaying  both 
> courage and
> loyalty

Magpie:
But that as usual gets into the inherent problem with "loyalty" as a virtue. 
It always assumes loyalty to "us" instead of "them."  Sirius is blasted off 
his family tapestry and considered completely disloyal--he seems to have 
disowned them far more than Percy has the Weasleys. Snape is potentially 
disloyal to Voldemort.  Draco would be smart to be disloyal to Voldemort. 
Petunia may very well see Lily as the disloyal one.  Marietta, from someone 
else's pov, might have flirted with disloyalty when she was with the DA, and 
then done the right thing by staying loyal.

Nikki:
Someone said (and I tried to find who, I think I know but I don't want
> to be  wrong) that it would be better for Harry to be his own man, to say 
> I
> am loyal to  DD, but I am my own man.  I think that statement would be 
> contrary
> to the  themes we see in the books.  The aim of the good person is not
> independence, but honoring one's connections, working with others, and 
> remaining
> faithful.

Magpie:
I don't know who said it, but I definitely agree with it.  One can honor 
one's connections and still be independent.  Harry himself might say he's 
Dumbledore's man but quite understandably has trouble trusting Snape just on 
Dumbledore's loyalty alone.

Nikki:>
> I also believe that it is made obvious which is the good side and that it
> truly matters which side one is on.  Thus, when Dobby betrays the Malfoys 
> it
> matters that he wants to help Harry (it is not to promote elf rights). 
> When
> Kreatcher betrays Harry, to whom he is bound, it matters that he is on the
> wrong side.

Magpie:
Yes, which imo calls into question the importance of loyalty.  It just seems 
clear that these people are being judged on whether or not they're smart 
enough to choose Harry rather than their loyalty.  Snape still seems reviled 
by the good side, but is it because he's shown disloyalty to Voldemort or 
because they will never really see him as one of them?

Nikki:
> That said, in the Potterverse, treachery of any kind appears to be
> punished, sometimes severely, regardless how the commitment was  formed.

Magpie:
That I would agree with, but I don't know if that's a punishment coming from 
"on high" or just the natural course of events. It's damned difficult to 
leave your family in the Potterverse because you need to have protectors if 
you get into trouble.  And so far blood is the strongest bond of protection. 
I don't think Sirius is *punished* for rejecting his family, but it does 
lead to his destruction.


Nikki:
> Marietta is a traitor. Canon does not give us any good reason for her
> betrayal and no one on the list has stated any reason why she did the 
> right  thing,
> only that she "must have thought she was doing right."  Since when  is 
> that a
> good excuse?

Magpie:
I don't think it's an excuse, but I don't think it's beside the point. 
Dumbledore has indicated that he thinks it's important to know why people do 
things and what drives them.  Marietta does suffer serious consequences for 
her act of betrayal, of course, as does Hermione suffer for her perceived 
betrayal in PoA.  People get angry when they feel betrayed.

Nikki:
The marks on her face are an example of
> karmic  justice.  In other words, she did it to herself.  I doubt Hermione 
> feels
> any responsibility.

Magpie:
But if that were the case, wouldn't Hermione be nuts?  Can she be any kind 
of moral person if she doesn't take responsibility for her actions?  The 
universe had nothing to do with this particular thing (as it often does in 
the Potterverse), it was just a spell by Hermione.  If she stands by her 
actions that's one thing, but thinking she has no responsibility?  That's a 
lot more troubling.  I think JKR knows very well how to write karmic justice 
and didn't do it with Marietta. That was something else she's shown 
before-Hermione justice.

To go back to the independence vs. honoring one's connections thing, how do 
we then understand the references to Mauvais Foi (or Malfoy) for Draco? 
Isn't the danger of Bad Faith living a role, defining onesself as "one of 
them" and so not having a choice?

-m