[HPforGrownups] Traitors, friends, loyalty and betrayal (was Evil Hermion...

[puduhepa98 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 155139

 
 
 
 
> Nikkalmati:
> Lanval touched on the central question regarding  Marietta and Hermione. 
> Two
> virtues appear to be paramount in  Potterverse: courage and loyalty. The
> Marietta incident is just one  example of betrayal found throughout the 
> books and
> I think it  has to be seen in conjunction with all the other incidents.
> The books  begin with a huge act of betrayal by Pettigrew for the base 
>  motive
> of saving his own skin, thus, an act against both courage and  loyalty.
> Sirius is the opposite character in this scenario, displaying  both 
> courage and
> loyalty

>Magpie:
>But that as  usual gets into the inherent problem with "loyalty" as a 
virtue. 
It always  assumes loyalty to "us" instead of "them." Sirius is blasted off 
his family  tapestry and considered completely disloyal--he seems to have 
disowned them  far more than Percy has the Weasleys. Snape is potentially 
disloyal to  Voldemort. Draco would be smart to be disloyal to Voldemort. 
Petunia may  very well see Lily as the disloyal one. Marietta, from someone 
else's pov,  might have flirted with disloyalty when she was with the DA, and 
then done  the right thing by staying loyal. 
Nikkalmati: 
I think JKR has made it abundantly clear who is us and who is them.  I  
really don't think she cares about the bad guys POV.

Nikki:
Someone  said (and I tried to find who, I think I know but I don't want
> to be  wrong) that it would be better for Harry to be his own man, to say 
>  I
> am loyal to DD, but I am my own man. I think that statement would be  
> contrary
> to the themes we see in the books. The aim of the good  person is not
> independence, but honoring one's connections, working with  others, and 
> remaining
> faithful.

>Magpie:
>I  don't know who said it, but I definitely agree with it. One can honor 
one's  connections and still be independent. Harry himself might say he's  
Dumbledore's man but quite understandably has trouble trusting Snape just on  
Dumbledore's loyalty alone. 
Nikkalmati: 
Not in these books, maybe in RL!  I didn't mention SS,  because Harry is 
shown as DD's man; that he thinks DD is deluded here does not  affect his loyalty 
to DD.

Nikki:>
> I also believe that  it is made obvious which is the good side and that it
> truly matters  which side one is on. Thus, when Dobby betrays the Malfoys 
> it
>  matters that he wants to help Harry (it is not to promote elf rights). 
>  When
> Kreatcher betrays Harry, to whom he is bound, it matters that he is  on the
> wrong side.

>Magpie:
>Yes, which imo calls into  question the importance of loyalty. It just seems 
clear that these people  are being judged on whether or not they're smart 
enough to choose Harry  rather than their loyalty. Snape still seems reviled 
by the good side, but  is it because he's shown disloyalty to Voldemort or 
because they will never  really see him as one of them? 
Nikkalmati: 
No one likes a spy.  Once he is revealed, both sides see him as  
untrustworthy, except perhaps his handler.

Nikki:
> That said, in  the Potterverse, treachery of any kind appears to be
> punished, sometimes  severely, regardless how the commitment was formed.

Magpie:
That I  would agree with, but I don't know if that's a punishment coming from 
"on  high" or just the natural course of events. It's damned difficult to 
leave  your family in the Potterverse because you need to have protectors if 
you  get into trouble. And so far blood is the strongest bond of protection. 
I  don't think Sirius is *punished* for rejecting his family, but it does 
lead  to his destruction.

Nikki:
> Marietta is a traitor. Canon does not  give us any good reason for her
> betrayal and no one on the list has  stated any reason why she did the 
> right thing,
> only that she  "must have thought she was doing right." Since when is 
> that a
>  good excuse?

>Magpie:
>I don't think it's an excuse, but I don't  think it's beside the point. 
Dumbledore has indicated that he thinks it's  important to know why people do 
things and what drives them. Marietta does  suffer serious consequences for 
her act of betrayal, of course, as does  Hermione suffer for her perceived 
betrayal in PoA. People get angry when  they feel betrayed. 
Nikkalmati: 
I don't recall that quote from DD.  

Nikki:
The marks on her  face are an example of
> karmic justice. In other words, she did it to  herself. I doubt Hermione 
> feels
> any  responsibility.

>Magpie:
>But if that were the case, wouldn't  Hermione be nuts? Can she be any kind 
of moral person if she doesn't take  responsibility for her actions? The 
universe had nothing to do with this  particular thing (as it often does in 
the Potterverse)the Potterverse)<WBR>, it was just a  spell by Hermione. 
actions that's one thing, but  thinking she has no responsibility? That's a 
lot more troubling. I think JKR  knows very well how to write karmic justice 
and didn't do it with Marietta.  That was something else she's shown 
before-Hermione justice. 
Nikkalmati: 
No, not nuts.  She set a spell that would do no harm to those who meant  
well.  If Marietta set it off, it was because she did wrong.  Her  choice, her 
responsibility.  
Nikkalmati

>Magpie 
>To go back to the independence vs. honoring one's connections thing, how  do 
we then understand the references to Mauvais Foi (or Malfoy) for Draco?  
Isn't the danger of Bad Faith living a role, defining onesself as "one of  
them" and so not having a choice? 

Nikkalmati: 
Well, I recall some remarks on list that Sartre defined bad faith as not  
living one's own life or some such.   I don't think Harry is living in  an 
existential universe (or that any of us are <g>).  Bad faith can  refer to just not 
being reliable, not being what one pretends, not keeping  faith.  Fits Lucius. 
 We will see about Draco. 
Nikkalmati


   


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