[HPforGrownups] Traitors, friends, loyalty and betrayal (was Evil Hermion...

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 155142


> Nikkalmati:
> I think JKR has made it abundantly clear who is us and who is them.  I
> really don't think she cares about the bad guys POV.

Magpie:
I don't think that's always true-some bad guys' pov does seem to matter. 
But regardless, you can't talk about loyalty as a virtue and only apply it 
to the good guys.  HBP especially seemed to have a lot of stuff in it 
showing that the good guys don't live in a vacuum and you can't just not be 
interested in the other pov, because whatever you do can be turned against 
you.


> Nikkalmati:
> Not in these books, maybe in RL!  I didn't mention SS,  because Harry is
> shown as DD's man; that he thinks DD is deluded here does not  affect his 
> loyalty
> to DD.

Magpie:
So what does it mean to be loyal to someone?  Why is Percy disloyal to his 
family for being angry at them? How can Harry make his own decisions on 
whether or not DD is deluded without being his own man?

> Nikkalmati:
> No one likes a spy.  Once he is revealed, both sides see him as
> untrustworthy, except perhaps his handler.

Magpie:
The HP universe seems like e a "nobody likes a spy" universe, but that's not 
universal in the real world.  Many people find spies to be a valuable 
resource that keeps people alive.  It's hard to believe that Snape and 
Lupin's contributions to the good side, which may ultimately be far more 
valuable and risky than anything James or Sirius did including getting 
heroically killed.  Are really supposed to be seen as less worthy because 
nobody likes a spy? Being a spy doesn't mean you can't be loyal.
.
> Nikkalmati:
> I don't recall that quote from DD.

Magpie:
You mean a quote from DD saying it's important to know why people do what 
they do?  I wasn't referring to a quote saying that but DD's attitude about 
everything.  Like where he'll say where things went wrong because he didn't 
understand what the other person really felt or tries to explain the other 
person's pov to Harry.  Had he known those things he would have planned 
better. I thought HBP intentionally ended with Harry getting an idea about 
what was really going on with an enemy that would come in handy.

> Nikkalmati:
> No, not nuts.  She set a spell that would do no harm to those who meant
> well.  If Marietta set it off, it was because she did wrong.  Her  choice, 
> her
> responsibility.

Magpie:
Then she's not nuts she's just dishonest?  Because you just described a 
spell that Hermione was totally responsible for. If it's Marietta's 
choice/responsibility that she set it off, it's equally Hermione's 
choice/responsibility to have researched, created and cast the spell in the 
first place. I'm not so sure the real Hermione wouldn't take credit for it.

> Nikkalmati:
> Well, I recall some remarks on list that Sartre defined bad faith as not
> living one's own life or some such.   I don't think Harry is living in  an
> existential universe (or that any of us are <g>).  Bad faith can  refer to 
> just not
> being reliable, not being what one pretends, not keeping  faith.  Fits 
> Lucius.
> We will see about Draco.

Magpie:
Except that Draco's story in HBP went a long way towards dramatizing 
Sartre's meaning of the phrase so I'm not ready to just wave it away as 
unimportant.   We will see about Draco, but what does that say about 
loyalty?  Draco could stay loyal to his family (good for loyalty) or betray 
them (bad for loyalty).  Or he could choose the right side (good for 
choosing the right side, bad for loyalty).  Is it just meaningless because 
JKR doesn't care about the bad guys even though Dumbledore seemed to care 
and it seemed to be a real focus in HBP?  It makes it seem like JKR was 
trying to say something about loyalty as a virtue but couldn't, so she just 
settled for a short-sighted tribal roar. But I think she's very interested 
in the bad guys' pov.  Not all of them are important, detailed characters, 
but the chosen few are very important--more important than plenty of good 
characters to the story.

-m