[HPforGrownups] Re: muggle baiting vs. muggle torture

[Jordan Abel]

No: HPFGUIDX 155229

jennathasania83:
>
> I think that Magpie's discomfort partly stems from the fact that
> Dudley is obviously incapable of doing magic, and thus has no way to
> defend himself against the Twins' torment, or at least that is the
> root of my discomfort with the situation. At least if it came down to
> a fist fight I imagine that Dudley could give as good as he got, which
> would not make the fighting "right" but would level the playing field.
> So yes, I personally would say that it is uniquely "not okay" to use
> magic, since it brings them right to the point where they are the big
> playground bully beating on the kid who is physically unable to fight
> back.

Random832:
But he _can_ fight back - with his fists. What's so _unique_ about
magic in ths instance? Are you saying that when there is a bully, it's
categorically inappropriate to try to get back at them or escape them
in a way that they could not have done? If they're unintelligent,
you'd be doing something wrong by trying to outsmart them? Or if you
have some martial arts knowledge you can't use it in self defence
because your attacker doesn't have the same skills? I think this is a
case of "unfamiliarity breeds contempt" - magic is somehow in a class
by itself.

jennathasania83:
> Being in the wrong and having someone disapprove of what you have
> done/are doing are two COMPLETELY different things.

Random832:
And casting the former as the latter is moral relativism of the worst
kind. Using an analogy that comes just short of explicitly claiming
that the Dursleys' treatment of Harry was something that the twins
merely disapproved of is disingenuous at best.

jennathasania83:
> True, most people
> disapprove of things that are socially and legally wrong, but people
> also disapprove of things that are perfectly normal or legal. It's not
> that the action itself doesn't matter, but the 'wrongness" can't be
> reduced down to an individual value judgement. For example, I could
> think that abortion is completely and utterly wrong, and those who
> practice it are evil people. (I don't, and I'm not out trying to
> offend anyone in anyway, this is just an easy example because it is a
> polarized topic) However, person A who is pro-choice is not "wrong" in
> anyway beyond my personal judgement, and just because "I" think that
> they deserve to be punished doesn't mean that their punishment is
> right, or that I should be able to punish them. So I don't think that
> Magpie is trying to imply moral relativism, rather she is arguing
> against.

Random832
Moral relativism is the claim that there are no things that are wrong,
only things that are disapproved of. I think that was, conscious or
otherwise, one of the core assumptions of her argument.

jennathasania83:
> Lastly, "because they deserved it" is the worst defense ever for an
> action. Not too long ago there was a big scandal about prison abuse
> occuring in a US military prison which really illustrates this point.
> The people detained were believed to be terrorists - and I'm sure that
> everyone will agree that being a terrorist is bad - but that didn't
> make it either morally or legally acceptable for them to be humiliated
> or mistreated, and even though the Americans were the "good" guys,
> didn't mean that they got a pass (technically). Also, although Dudley
> didn't die from the toffee it was pretty clear that he could have
> asphixiated (=death);

Random832:
Only if you think too hard about it. It's magic, remember. There's no
indication that there was even a possibility that he could have been
unable to breathe for a period long enough to asphyxiate.

jennathasania83:
> poisoning candies and leaving them out for
> unsuspecting people will get you major jail time, and it's pretty
> strange to say that "they deserved to die" because they chose to eat
> the candies.

Random832:
Nobody was attempting murder here. and it'd be less strange, though
perhaps almost as bad, to say that "they deserved to die" because of
some prior action they had done that prompted you to leave the candies
out for them - your analogy was pretty distorted, you have to admit.
But the point is nobody tried to kill anyone, and condemning the use
of magic _at all_ is a problem.