Traitors and Deserters (was:Re: muggle baiting vs. muggle torture)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 155661

> >>Steven1965aaa:
> No, I am not one of the "war" people, I agree with you on that.

Betsy Hp:
If we agree that the DA was not actually an army, and that the 
students at Hogwarts weren't in an all out, no holds barred, 
shooting war with Umbridge, but were in a slightly less bloody 
conflict, then I think the twins were great.  (OMG, I might have 
pulled something! <g>)

I totally agree with what Magda says in her post here:
> <snip>
> As much as I think the twins are a lot less
> likeable than JKR does, they rose magnificently to the Umbridge
> challenge in a way that no one else did. They saw - perhaps
> instinctively - that the best way to defeat a total control freak 
> is to unleash total chaos.
> <snip>

And I agree that their grand exit, far from fleeing the scene, 
actually boosts the morale of the students still remaining at 
Hogwarts. 

> >>Steven1965aaa:
> I was just making that point hypothetically, saying even if you   
> would view it as a "war" against Umbridge, which I thought other   
> people had suggested earlier, then ...

Betsy Hp:
Ah, but if we *do* go with the all out war thing, like Eggplant and 
Alla do...

> >>Eggplant:
> A illegal study group that risked death and more than held there   
> own against twice as many experienced and very evil Death Eaters. 
> That's some "study group".
> In a war there is no place for squeamishness, not if you intend to
> win.
> <snip>

> >>Alla:
> Whether Harry was **looking** for the army or not, he IMO **found**
> it. All students who stood with him in MoM were members of the DA.
> **A lot** of what they had used there , they learned there IMO.
> So to me the **big picture** is there and Marietta to me is still a
> traitor, **not** a snitch.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Well, then that's an entirely different story.  Because now we've 
got the twins running away as soon as they're threatened, leaving 
behind the remaining DA members to pick up the slack.  And we have 
Harry and company getting caught by Umbridge because his best 
trouble makers are gone.  And we've got a smaller group at the DoM, 
because the twins have deserted.  If the twins had stayed, if they'd 
been at the DoM battle maybe Sirius would have lived.  For want of a 
nail the kingdom was lost, etc.

And *that* is why deserters and traitors suffer (or used to suffer, 
anyway, AFAIK) the same punishment (death) when there's a war on.  
And that is also why if you're going to argue that Marietta actually 
deserves to be walking around with her face disfigured into the next 
school year you're leaving the door open for the twins to deserve 
marks as well.

IMO, I think the DA was a cleverly subversive study group, the twins 
were masters of chaos, and Hermione went *waaay* too far when she 
came up with her vindictive and vengeful and top-secret punishment. 

> >>Steven1965aaa:
> <snip> 
> I agree that I certainly wouldn't want to get on Hermione's bad 
> side!  But (wanting to see the good) I chalk Rita Skeeter and 
> Marietta up to Hermione's fierce desire to protect Harry.

Betsy Hp:
I do think Hermione had the best of intentions.  (Honestly,  that's 
the scariest part of this whole thing for me.)  But she goes too 
far, IMO.  And she needs to face that and (hopefully) learn from it.

> >>Steven1965aaa:
> By the way, didn't it tun out that Tin Man had a heart all along?

Betsy Hp:
Gosh, I have no idea! <bg>  Um, if he did I guess we could point out 
that Ron has been by Hermione's side since the beginning? Mostly?  
(Really, Steven, way to ruin my beautiful little closing note up-
thread. <g>)

Betsy Hp