[HPforGrownups] Moaning Myrtle's murder (Was: Harry a Horcrux?)

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 153586

justcarol67 wrote:

> Carol responds:
> At a guess, I'd say that the important murders are Moaning Myrtle
> (I'll get back to her in a minute) as his first, all three Riddles
> (ending the Riddle line and getting revenge), and Hepzibah Smith (for
> her Hufflepuff heritage). That would cover the diary (Myrtle), the
> ring (Tom Sr.), the cup (Hepzibah), and two more (the locket and the
> Ravenclaw Horcrux for the other two Riddles?). I think that Nagini is
> a Horcrux, but that she was made one before Godric's Hollow, which
> would account for Voldemort's snakelike appearance even before his
> return (see the description of his features when his head sticks out
> the back of Quirrell's) and for his ability to possess her without
> killing her.

   KJ:
    I like:       Grindlewald for the locket because he taught him how 
to
                    make horcruxes

                  Grandpa for the diary because he was only slightly
                    significant and he needed to try it out

                  Dad for the ring because he owed him one and there was
                    contact with the Gaunt family

                  Hepzibah for the cup because she was a descendant of
                  Helga

    I'm thinking  Dorcas Meadows for the Ravenclaw item because her name
                   was tossed out there for a reason but we don't know
                   why. We just know that he killed her himself.

                  Harry was destined to be number 6 and would have been
                   associated to the Gryffindor item.

    Spares:       Brice, Grandma. Lilly, James, Amelia Bones, Quirrel,



> To return to Moaning Myrtle: Diary!Tom says that he opened the Chamber
> of Secrets and released the Basilisk to continue "Salazar Slytherin's
> noble work"--that is, to rid Hogwarts of Muggleborns. As the Basilisk
> slides through the pipes, it says things like "Kill! Kill! Kill!" That
> is its purpose; it's the reason that Tom released it both in his fifth
> year at Hogwarts and via the diary in CoS. He understands and speaks
> Parseltongue, as does the snake; the snake obeys his orders, given in
> its own language. Myrtle hears him talking to the snake before she
> comes out of the stall. It seems to me likely that he ordered the
> Basilisk to kill the girl when she came out. Tom may well have known
> Myrtle's habit of crying in the bathroom or recognized her voice. And
> he would certainly have known that she was a "Mudblood," such things
> being important to him. (It's also possible that the snake could
> recognize a Muggleborn by the smell, which could be why only
> Muggleborns were attacked.) Since he had the Basilisk with him for one
> reason only, to kill Muggleborns, why question that that's exactly
> what he was doing in this instance?

    KJ:

    I think that this is part of the reason that I am not convinced that 
Myrtle was a planned murder, as described in canon, as the ultimate act 
of evil. Keep in mind that this is a sixteen year old boy, and it is, 
unless I am mistaken, prior to the knowledge of horcruxes and the desire 
for immortality. It is easy to become enthralled with famous ancestors, 
or idealistic ideas and want to carry them out, but the realism, even to 
a skunk like Riddle, causes a certain amount of disorientation.

    I'm thinking that while he may have let the basilisk loose, he may 
not have understood what the results would be, especially when it must 
have happened right before his eyes. I am wondering if this is what set 
him on his path for immortality when he saw how quickly life can be 
lost. Once he selfishly decided that this was never going to happen to 
him, everything after that point was done to preserve his own life.

    The memory of Tom Riddle is deceptive as well, in that we are 
hearing him speak of memories from the past, like Hagrid and the 
spider,but also
he is speaking of memories of how a baby could have defeated him. That 
whole seen is like a bad case of mixed up tenses. So the person we saw 
as the Riddle memory was also contaminated by Voldemort memory. We do 
suspect that he committed his first true murders between sixth and 
seventh year, when he acquired the ring.

  Carol:
> If, say, Draco were to release a venomous snake into a classroom and
> it bit a student and the student died, wouldn't he be guilty of
> murder? Everyone seem to think that he would have been guilty of
> murder if Ron or Katie had died even though neither was his intended
> victim. Why, then, wouldn't Tom be guilty of murder when Myrtle
> died--even if he didn't set the snake on her, as I think he did? A
> Basilisk is even more deadly than a cursed necklace or poisoned mead.
> There is no countercurse or antidote for its deadly gaze.

KJ:
   I think that a soul splitting murder has to be at closer quarters 
that what we see with this scenario.  Draco would definitely be taking 
the chance of killing someone with a poisonous snake, but it is much 
more at arms length than a killing curse. I think that there has to be 
some personal investment in the act of killing to make a person truly evil.


> Carol, who thinks that having killed Myrtle made it much, much easier
> for Tom to kill his own family

   KJ:
    I can't argue with that.  That is perhaps Myrtle's true purpose. Tom 
just moved on from there and built on past experience. I think it 
certainly taught him a disrespect for "normal" people who could lose 
their lives so easily.

   KJ, thanking Carol for an enjoyable discussion :)