[HPforGrownups] Re: Baptism/Christianity in HP: was Looking for God in Harry Potter

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 153628

> Leslie41:
> Christ's sacrifice is more comprehensive.  That, however, does not
> preclude Lily's sacrifice from being Christlike, especially when we
> consider the other aspects at play at Godric's Hollow.  It's not
> either/or.  And as Tonks has pointed out, the name "Lily" (the plant
> associated with Easter) is significant as well.  And I would point
> out that the name James can be tied to the Apostle James, who
> preached on the importance of doing good works. Then, of course,
> there's the scar.

Magpie:
I'm not denying that Lily's sacrifice can be called Christ-like, just as 
many acts in the books (and many books) can be called so. But I thought this 
thread started because we're talking about a book about magic where Lily's 
sacrifice, which in the books is given its own context, created a magic 
spell of Easter Lily + holy water + AK that happened to land in the exact 
spot where the holy water was = Harry's being saved when the book's already 
given us its own story.  Yes, the sacrifice created a deep magic and that 
goes along well with Christianity.  Lily was given a choice to die, just as 
Jesus was given a choice to die.  There's nothing wrong with thinking of one 
with regards to the other.  But there's still the fact that Christianity 
itself exists in Harry's world and if the ending of the book is that Christ 
is the one magic Harry hasn't been calling on and should I think that would 
be very much out of left field.

If you were just talking about relating the story to Christianity or that 
Lily's sacrifice echoes Christ's sacrifice in X way that would be fine, but 
it seems like you're adding a very specific magic into the story as part of 
the plot.

>> Magpie:
>> Yes, and that brings meaning to someone who's Christian and
>> therefore connects any good act with being Christ-like, but I
>> don't see how it brings meaning to what happened in the story.
>> Lily's sacrifice, in that way, would be Christlike whether Harry
>> had been baptised or not.
>
> Leslie41:
> Sure it would!  But when we take together the other stuff that's
> going on--the scar, her name, James' name, etc., a pattern begins to
> appear.

Magpie:
And I'm saying the pattern you're referring to begins to appear when you go 
in looking for that pattern.  Happens all over the place in fandom.  James 
is a totally common name.  It's a nice English name, just like Harry is. 
And a lot of the girls in canon are named after flowers.  Trying to relate 
everything to a code to the point of taking an ordinary name like James and 
deciding it must be an allusion to an apostle who preached about good works 
(which doesn't make me think of James Potter at all) just because he's in 
the Bible is, imo, not a reading supported by the text but more like the 
many other fandom readings where the text is called in to support the 
reading the author wants.  To me it goes straight into the territory of 
Knight2King where a theory gets supported by just assuming it's true and 
then looking for anything in the text that can be said to be part of the 
theory.  If I saw something beyond James sharing his common name with 
somebody in the Bible I'd certainly consider it--Rowling has been known to 
choose names with mythological significance and I don't think the Bible is 
off-limits, but I can also see that names have modern associations too and 
that Rowling uses them.  I'm sure she chose "Lily" knowing all its 
associations, but Lily is also just Petunia's sister, the spunky girl 
flirting with James Potter as he pantses Snape.

There are lots of books that have allusions to the Christian story and as I 
said I do assume that Harry's saving Voldemort through love will fit right 
in with the JKR's understanding of her faith.  But there's a big step 
between that and looking for direct symbols and a direct coded re-telling of 
the Bible.  But maybe I'm just not getting what you're getting at.  What are 
you predicting?  Are you just laying a claim to the story in the name of 
Christianity?  Pointing out ways it's informed by JKR's Christian beliefs? 
Explaining what really happened in scenes we've seen?  Because maybe I think 
you are meaning more than you are.  I can see looking at, for instance, the 
stories of redemption and second chances and Dumbledore's mercy and talking 
about them in the context of Christianity (as well as just in themselves and 
in the context of other things), but it seems like you're offering it as a 
sort of key to everything, and that's why people are resisting the idea 
rather than just saying, "Neat, that illuminates that scene in a new way."

-m