Baptism/Christianity in HP: was Looking for God in Harry Potter

[festuco]

No: HPFGUIDX 153673

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:

> Tonks:
> Looks like rain to me...
> 
> Drop: Harry has a mark on his forehead that appeared there after the 
> sacrificial death of his mother. A death that did not need to 
> happen. And the mother's name is Lily which leads one to think of an 
> Easter lily. Symbolism of the Death of Christ and a reminder of (but 
> not the same as) the (invisible) mark left on a child/adult at their 
> Baptism. Just happens to be at the same place. Hum.. (Note: the mark 
> put on a child at baptism is the mark of the way in which Christ 
> died. . a cross which was an evil thing..  and Harry's mark is the 
> mark of LV.  The cross only became a positive symbol for Christians 
> because of the Resurrection.)
> 
Gerry
The death needed to happen for Harry to survive. If she had not, no
symbol but a dead toddler. 
As already pointed out before, the symbol is exactly in the spot where
the sixth chacra is, the pituitary gland which is responsible for
telepathy and clairvoyance. And look: we see this come back in the
story with the linked minds of LV and Harry.

New Age links, pagan links, or just JKR who happens to know a lot
about symbolism and Western esoteric culture.

> Drop:  First year students at Hogwarts travel through the water to 
> get into the Castle.  ONLY first years go this way. Why? This is the 
> symbol of entry into the Church through the water of Baptism.
> 
Gerry
Ceasar crossing the Rubicon. The dead crossing the Styx, with Charon
as the ferryman. Especially for Muggleborns the travel into almost
literaly another world. For the rest the threshold between magic free
childhood and school. 


> Drop: The name Sirius means Morning Star and this is a known symbol 
> of Christ who is called the morning star. 

Gerry
In ancient Egypte, Sirius was called the Dog Star and it was a symbol
of Osiris who had a dog head. 

Hm, I can make a better and better case for paganism in Harry Potter. 
> 
> Tonks_op: "oh look it starting to rain."
> 
> Others: "no it isn't." "Not a cloud in the sky."
> 
Gerry
> Drop:  Sirius's friends are James, John and Peter.  Jesus' closest 
> disciples were Peter, James and John. He told them with him 
> everywhere. They were the only ones he took with him when 
> he `transfigured'.  Why did JKR chose these names and the whole 
> concept of transfiguration? She could have used other names, but why 
> these and in this combination? Why do the 4 of them transfigure? 

Which John? I thought Sirius' best friend where James, Remus and Peter. 

> 
> Drop: Book title: HP and the Philosopher's Stone.  Symbol of the 
> quest for eternal life.

Gerry:
Alchemy! Paganism again. Alchemy is much, much older than Christianity
b.t.w. 
> 
> Drop: Book title: HP and the Chamber of Secrets.  Symbolism of both 
> the death of Adam and Eve at the hand of the serpent, and the 
> Resurrection of Jesus in the tomb. Also symbolism of the saving 
> grace given to Adam and Eve because of the resurrection of Jesus.  
> Because Harry represented Adam and Ginny represents Eve, it makes 
> sense that later on JKR would pair the two.  Ginny was always meant 
> in JKR's mind to be Harry's true love because they represent Adam 
> and Eve. 

Gerry
???? First of all: the serpent dit not kill Adam and Eve. After they
left paradise, they had at least three children and live to a ripe old
age. Adam does not kill the serpent, nor does his god. Why would Harry
and Ginny represent Adam and Eve? Far, far fetched. 
> 
> Drop: Book title: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Christ 
> comes to set the prisoner free. 
> 
Gerry
In PoA the prisoner manages to do that himself. Besides, in the Bible
Christ does quite a lot, but never does he go to a prison to let
people out. 



> Tonks_op: "it is really starting to rain hard now.  Here, get under 
> my umbrella. "
> 
> Others:  "We don't see any rain. You are crazy." "You only think you 
> see rain because you are looking for rain."

Gerry
No rain at all. 
> 
> Drop: Book title: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.  A Goblet 
> with fire that does not consume. A non-consuming fire is a symbol of 
> God and the Goblet a symbol of the challis used by Jesus at the last 
> supper. 

Gerry
A non-consuming fire is also a symbol of the Zoaraster religion. The
goblet of fire is not meant to be drunk at, nor does it in any way
have everything to do with a sacrament. 

The chalice was not meant to exclude people and select only the chosen
three as the goblet does. 
> 
> Drop: Book title: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.  DD 
> formed the Order of the Phoenix (phoenix is a symbol of 
> Resurrection). This is similar to Jesus and his disciples and the 
> forming of the first Christian church.  The Order fights LV who 
> himself represents the powers of darkness and evil. The Christian 
> church also fights the powers of darkness and evil. The Church on 
> Earth is called the Church Militant. 

Gerry
And before Christianity the Phoenix was a sun symbol. The sun which
dies every night and is reborn every day. And also before christianity
people fought against the powers of darkness and evil. 
> 
> Drop: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.  Of course the 
> reference is not to Snape, but to the real Half-blood Prince who was 
> Jesus.  And in this book (as I have written in detail elsewhere in 
> post #147906 and #151730) we have the metaphorical Crucifixion of 
> Christ at the "place of the Skull" having been betrayed by one of 
> his own. 

Gerry
Jesus as a half-blood? Only in some parts of christianity I'm sure.
The more obscure ones I presume. With the rest I don't agree either.
> 
> Drop: At the end of book 6 we are left with the words of Scrimgeour 
> to Harry that "even Dumbledore can not return from the ----"  Now 
> why I ask you would JKR choose those words out of anything she could 
> have said?

Gerry
Because what Harry says can easily be taken as denial. I found that
remark completely logical, and I will be sorely disappointed if he
comes back after all. 
> 
> Drop: In an interview JKR says that DD is not Jesus. Hum.. why use 
> those words? She could have said "he is not Merlin, he is not ____. 
> why "not Jesus"  if she did not mean for us to think about the 
> connection?  She did not say "he is not Christ". 

Gerry
Because lots of fans hope he is not really dead. And actually, I think
that Merlin is quite a good comparison. 
> 
> Tonks: "Here is an umbrella. You are going to get soaked out there."
> 
> Others (dripping wet, standing in a puddle of water):  "No thanks.  
> We still don't see or feel any rain!!"  "It is NOT raining!"
> 
> What can I say???

Gerry
Here's the subnilk

Gerry