Understanding Snape

[houyhnhnm102]

No: HPFGUIDX 153875

Neri:

> It suggests that Snape is torn between two contradicting objectives.

houyhnhnm:

You mean he delayed notifying the Order because he couldn't make up his 
mind?  Hamlet!Snape?


Neri:

> No. You are still stuck with DDM!Snape and Voldemort'sMan!Snape, 
> both assuming that those are the only two possible outcomes 
> because they are what's important for the two sides in the war. 

houyhnhnm:

No, I'm not considering Snape's motives at all at this point.  I'm 
thinking that once Voldemort lures Harry to the Ministry, he's either 
going to obtain the Prophecy or fail to obtain it. What else is there?

Neri:
  
> And Snape dallying suggests that his agenda consists 
> of two contradicting objectives.

> The LID!Snape theory assumes that Snape's first objective 
> was to continue with the double-agent game as long as 
> possible and come out on top whichever side wins the war. 
> But this contradicted his second objective – he must repay 
> his Life Debt to James's son before he can bet on Voldemort's
> side. Even worse for Snape – he must save Harry's life 
> without Voldemort learning about it, because if Voldemort 
> learns about it the double-agent game is over and Snape 
> is stuck on Dumbledore's side, which might end up the losing side.

houyhnhnm:

Oh, now I think I understand.  You are saying that Snape has no consistant 
agenda, that he is driven hither and yon by conflicting compulsions, 
always acting at cross purposes with himself.  Hamlet!Snape.  That's an 
interesting theory.  I hadn't thought of it that way before.  It seems to 
rely heavily on a very fundamentalist interpretation of the Life Debt, 
however, one for which I don't see much support in canon.  Nor have I seen 
a convincing explanation for why the Life Debt affects Snape in such a 
concrete way, but Pettigrew not at all.

Neri:

> The LID!Snape version of the OotP climax is that Snape 
> indeed had orders from Voldemort to "stay behind", just 
> as he says in Spinner's End. So he knew about the ongoing 
> operation but was afraid of warning 12GP because he was 
> also told that Voldemort had a spy there (but not necessarily 
> that the spy was Kreacher). If Snape warned the Order the 
> spy might report it to Voldemort. So Snape was grateful 
> when Umbridge took Harry to the forest – Harry wouldn't 
> die, Snape wouldn't have to warn the Order and it would 
> be Umbridge's fault that Voldemort's operation failed. 
> But once Snape realized that Harry went to the DoM after 
> all he had no choice left but to warn the Order, or he'd 
> fail in paying his Life Debt. Lucky for him (and for 
> JKR's plot) Dumbledore caught Kreacher and Sirius ended 
> up dead. So Voldemort never learned about Snape warning
> the Order and Dumbledore never learned what was Snape's 
> first message to Sirius, if indeed such a message even existed.

houyhnhnm:

So you are conceeding that Snape notified the Order as soon as he realized 
Harry might have gone to the Ministry? ;-)

I don't see how Kreacher could have been a threat to Snape on this one 
occasion if he wasn't when Snape was delivering information to the Order 
all year.  Kreacher was only able to betray information no one had deemed 
important, like Harry's emotional ties to Sirius. If the message was 
delivered by Patronus, how would Kreacher know anything about its 
contents.    And had Snape not really contacted Sirius the first time, 
wouldn't something have come out when DD debriefed the other Order 
members, even if they weren't there at the time. They were there the 
second time Snape made contact.  Wouldn't it have seemed funny to them if 
Sirius acted like it was the first he'd heard, and later they found out 
Snape was already supposed to have contacted him?