the whole Christian/Baptism debate that's been going on

[festuco]

No: HPFGUIDX 153903

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marion Ros" <mros at ...> wrote:
>

> Marion:

> When Wizards and Witches still lived amongst Muggles they were
hunted down. Burned. Not by 'normal Christians' but by Christians.
Using books like the Malleus Maleficarum ('Witches Hammer') and
condoned, even lead, by the (Christian) Church.

Gerry
No they were not. Read the beginning of PoA when Harry has to write an
essay titled: 'Witch burning in the fourteenth century was completely
pointless, discuss." They could not recoginize magic. Harry's also
essay deals with what real witches and wizards did when caught: a
basic flame-freezing charm. 

 
> Marion:
> You suppose. Yet is there *one* shred of evidence that there are
Christian Wizards? Except for the 'godfather' thing, which isn't a
thing reserved for Christians (pagans had a concept of an 'honorary
uncle that taught the young warrior what he needed to know' as well,
you know) or the Christmas tree? (which is also a pagan symbol, and
remember: they don't celebrate *Christmas* at Hogwarts, but they *do*
celebrate Yule - a pagan feast - and Halloween - again a pagan feast)

Gerry
ROFL. Harry was christened according to JKR. The only people who do so
are Christians. Harry has a godfather, a christian term, not a pagan
one. That pagans also have such a concept does not mean a thing. If
the Potters and Sirius were pagan they would have had a pagan word for
it. They have not. They don't celebrate Yule at Hogwarts. They
celebrate Christmas. That's why everybody wishes each other Merry
Christmas, does Draco feel sorry for all those who celebrate Christmas
at Hogwarts because they are wanted at home PS, p 143, Bloomsbury, do
they have a christmas dinner at Hogwarts, p.149, does Harry spend A
Very Frosty Christmas at the Burrow, chapter 16 of HBP and on and on
and on. Every book is full of references to Christmas, and the only
reference to Yule is the Yule ball in GoF, which will start at eight o
clock on Christmas Day, as McGonnagal announces in class, p337 GOF
Bloomsbury hardcover editon.

Besides Yule is often used for Christmas:

Yule

(also Yuletide)

  • noun archaic Christmas.

  — ORIGIN Old English or Old Norse, originally applied to a pagan
festival lasting twelve days; related to JOLLY.

Halloween is not a pagan feest. The pagan word is Samhain and we don't
know what the ancient Celts celebrated then, except that it was the
beginning of winter. The remembrance of all Saints and all Souls is
Roman Catholic. For more information see Stations of the Sun, a
history of the Ritual Year in Britain and Triumph of the Moon,  a
history of modern pagan witchcraft, R. Hutton.

Marion
> Really, I don't understand the reactions I've been seeing in this
thread at all (beware: small rant ahead)
> If this story took place in say, Shangrilah, tucked away deep in the
Himalayans, without (or mostly without) contact with the outside world
for centuries, nobody would have a problem with them having different
beliefs, but put the story in a tucked away corner of reality in
Britain, and suddenly (some) Christian readers are convinced that the
Wizarding Culture is "just like us, just with wands".

Gerry
Maybe if your ideas were supported in canon it would have made a
difference. The Potterverse is secularly Christian just like modern
day Britain itself. B.t.w. I'm pagan, so its no use to blame the
Christians. 

Marion
> But it doesn't work that way. The WW is *vastly* different from the
Muggle World which they live next to, but which they have completely
shut out, don't like, even look down on. But more about that later.
> 
Actually, I dont' agree at all. It is very much the same as Muggle
society, with the same values. 
> 
 
> Marion:
> What? You think the WW has *christian morals*? You think that it is
*nice*?
> This is a culture that obliviates Muggels routinely after a 'magical
incident' to 'protect itself'. This is mentioned in the books. When
Harry and Ron were seen flying that stupid car, several muggles were
immediately obliviated.
> "Must not be seen at any cost" is the WW's motto. And they go a
looong way to protect themself.

Gerry
Hm seems like any modern governement to me. The War on Terrorism
springs to mind. As are countless other examples of governements
lying, messing up, trying to wriggle out of mistakes, the Birmingham
six, etc. etc. 

Besides: DD's empahsis on the Power of Love does have a Christian ring
to it, to say the least. It is also a universal value, but compared to
for example Islam it is obvious that in Christianity it has a much
more prominent place. After all, there it is a commandment. 

Marion
> But what if they weren't? Does the WW show any compassion with the
family members of a newly hatched wizard? 

Gerry
As we have not seen an example, we don't know. 

Marion
> The Dursleys are scared to death of magic (and why, I wonder? Did
they see something that scared them? Did somebody do something nasty
to them? This is speculation, but I wonder) Just being smallminded and
bourgois doesn't add up to the overwhelming terror they display. 

Gerry
Did you ever read articles written by 'professional' sceptics on the
paranormal? Very enlightening. People can be really, really scared if
their worldview is threathenend. 

Marion
 I don't think that dumping a magical child on the doorstep of
magicphobic people is very funny. The message is clear, however. "This
is a magical child. You must care for it to give it the protection it
needs. You have no choice in this. And when the child is eleven, we
will take it away from you again, because it belongs to *our* world,
not yours. But for the time being we need some stupid Muggle
broodmares to feed it and clothe it and wipe its nose."

Gerry   
Hm, why do I have the idea that Harry lives there because they are his
legal guardians now Sirus is locked up in Azkaban? Why do I have the
idea that he is left there because they are his -family-. Why do I
have the idea that it is normal that an orphan is left with his
-family- instead of with strangers? 

Marion
> I mean, really. If you were phobic about spiders, and somebody gave
you his pet tarantula to look after for ten years, what would you do? 

Because people cannot be related to spiders your argument is not valid. 

Gerry