[HPforGrownups] Re:the whole Christian/Baptism debate that's been going on

[rebecca]

No: HPFGUIDX 153873

>Marion said:

<snip>

>This is a world where the media is controlled by the government and the 
>government is as corrupt as a rotten >pear.

>This is *not* a nice world.

>Obliviating the Muggle parents that are unwilling to let their magical 
>offspring go to Hogwarts, or stealing those >magical children from parents 
>who think that magic is 'sent by the devil' would be a nobrainer for the 
>WW. >They'd approve wholeheartedly. To let magical children stay in the 
>Muggle world would be a danger to the >secrecy of the WW after all (it 
>tends to get noticed when children start to perform wild magic, and 
>'getting >noticed' is what the WW are NOT willing to risk)

Rebecca:

I can't thank you enough for this portion of your post.   I concur with 
you - the WW is as damaged as any other society. IMO, often much emphasis in 
interpretations of the books appears to be religious in nature, rather than 
looking at the WW social, ethical and philosophical analysis. Personally, I 
feel and have experienced that arguing religious interpretations or symbols 
against epics like this online often leads to discord and anger: if this 
were a face to face forum, it probably would lend itself to a better 
discussion.  Now, on with the show...

The Death Eaters and LV don't appear to me to give one iota whether the 
Muggle world sees them performing magic or not (HBP first chapter convinced 
me of that), as they view non-magical people as subordinate to themselves. 
Do house elves?  Vampires? Goblins? I believe that the WW society is 
completely and utterly fractured, with different groups of wizards and other 
magical species vying for their own agendas:  there doesn't appear to be a 
common goal or belief among all of these different groups. Excepting those, 
of course) that have been repressed in some way by the social contract 
devised way back when in WW and about which we hear snippets in Professor 
Binns' class. JKR's own WOMBATS test is partly focused on social choices 
between the authority (Ministry law) and society.

The way JKR has written this thus far, IMO it appears philosophically along 
the lines of the English philosopher, Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes felt that in a 
natural state, man is inherently anti-social , and therefore ego gets in the 
way of peace and order in the natural state. And in man's natural state, the 
threat of death supercedes all, any man will fight for self-preservation and 
there's a constant rights-based struggle of "all against all".  According to 
Hobbes, this can only be avoided if strong leader with the complete power 
based in fear or awe to control the entire society or community is 
established . Does the Ministry control everything or instill fear or awe to 
control the community?  To me, no, but that does look to be somewhat along 
the lines of what Lord Voldemort and his merry band of Death Eaters are 
doing to instill their values, albeit in a terrorist sort of way. 
Hobbesian, a word based on an interpretation of Hobbes' work, is described 
in English as an event or situation which involves "unrestrained, selfish 
and uncivilised competition."  I can't think of a better word to describe 
what Lord Voldemort and the Ministry are doing to the WW society.

I probably don't need to say this, but for those who don't know, JKR  was 
Classics scholar. Typically, that line of study does include philosophy 
among the required credited courses. Marry this with JKR's position as a 
researcher with Amensty International and it's not too farfected to think 
some of that mindset might be present in the HP books.

Rebecca, who enjoys philosophy and sociology discussions