James' essence/some Sirius and his family WAS: Re: Choice and Essentialism

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 154104

Alla wrote:
> So, if you are not saying that he was not opposed to Dark Arts and I 
> don't think that we have any canon support to say that he was not, 
> what are we arguing about?
> 
> That James cannot be boiled down so to speak to his opposition to 
> Dark Arts? Sure, I am sure that was not the only thing he cared
about in life.  Or is it your argument that Sirius statement is not to
be believed after all?

Carol responds:
I'm saying that James's opposition to the Dark Arts, which perhaps
existed in some form by the time he finished Hogwarts, does not
necessarily date from his first year at Hogwarts, nor does it
adequately explain his hatred of the equally young Severus Snape, who
surely was not a Dark wizard at that age. (He *was* a "little oddball"
who wasn't rich or handsome, who happened to be placed in Slytherin--a
house that Sirius Black hated--and who knew a lot more hexes than kids
his age normally knew. Reason enough to dislike him if he dislikes you
back and if you both happen to be children.)

I'm also saying that Sirius Black is 1) allowing his affection for
James to color his mental picture of him, seeing the best in James and
ignoring the worst in him, 2) using that "best" trait to explain
James's dislike of Severus when most likely the original antagonism
had some other cause, given the age of the children involved, and 3)
using James's later opposition to Voldemort to explain away or excuse
James's bullying of Severus in the Pensieve scene--at a point when
there's no evidence other than the fact that some of his fellow
Slytherins had become DEs to connect the teenage Severus to Voldemort.

There is absolutely no evidence that even the teenage Severus (as
opposed to the child Severus) practiced Dark magic at this
point--except the single spell Sectumsempra, which apparently was
invented as retaliation against "enemies," nor is there any evidence
that he was a supporter of the Dark Lord when the Pensieve incident
occurred. *If there had been, James would surely have mentioned it
rather than cheerfully admitting to hexing Severus because he exists.*
If he had any such justification for his unprovoked attack, surely he
would have told the girl he wanted to admire him, a girl who
considered him "a bullying toerag," that Severus was something even
worse. We receive no such justification, and even the "Mudblood"
insult occurs after the fact and is not used to excuse the original
assault. Lily asks what Severus has done as James's whole rationale is
that Severus exists.

Again, I am not accusing Sirius Black of lying, unless partial truths
count as lies for him as they do for Snape is "Spinner's End." Not
lying is not the same as telling the complete truth. Black is making
excuses for James. Yes, he *believes* what he's  saying, whether it's
true or not of James at fifteen (as opposed to James at twenty-two),
but he also knows (IMO) that it's not the *full* truth. He knows
perfectly well that he and James attacked Severus without provocation
and that James acted because he, Sirius, was bored.

Even if James did oppose the Dark Arts as a kid at school, even if he
disliked Severus because he associated him from Day One with the Dark
Arts, that was no excuse for his behavior. (Nor does it excuse his
accomplice, Sirius Black.) More important to the present argument, I
see no indication of any such association of Severus Snape with the
Dark Arts in young *James's* mind. I do see it in young Sirius's mind.
His family were Dark wizards with a tradition of being placed in
Slytherin. Severus Snape at eleven was a clever little boy who knew
more hexes by far than he should have known at that age. He must have
seemed like the ultimate Slytherin to Sirius (something like the boy
his parents wanted him to be). And it might not have been difficult to
persuade James to share that view. Or Sirius may simply have been
projecting his reasons for hating Severus onto James. If I had to
think of a reason why both boys hated Severus (and Sirius's hatred
seems stronger to me than James's), I'd say that it's probably a
hatred of Slytherin House, which they project onto the most talented
Slytherin in their year.

We simply have no evidence that James *always* hated the Dark Arts or
that Severus Snape at age eleven was practicing the type of magic that
could be labeled Dark and that James hated him for this reason.

As I said, I'm not saying that Sirius is lying, only that he may be
mistaken, looking at young James in light of the heroically dead adult
James.

> Alla:
> 
> Why is he better at DADA? Because he reads it after exam? I see it
as very insufficient evidence.
> Maybe James and Sirius were brilliant enough that they did not need 
> extra studying.

Carol responds:
They apparently didn't care much about the exam, given their jokes
about the werewolf question and the ease with which the test, once
taken, slips from their minds. (Pure speculation here: They were both
rich boys who didn't need to worry about earning a living; Severus,
who had to use second-hand books, apparently did.)

Clearly Severus did care about the exam, which is why he was rereading
the exam questions. (He reminds me of Hermione in this scene, worried
that he might have missed some small detail or, heaven forefend!
gotten some small detail wrong.) The evidence that he was
exceptionally good at DADA is not that he rereads the exam questions,
which merely indicates that he cares about the results, but his long,
detailed exam answers--a foot more than anyone else--in a cramped
minuscule handwriting. He obviously knew a lot about DADA, and he's
making sure that the examiners realize just how much he knows--not to
mention that he was inventing his own spells and counterspells at this
point in his life. And all those hexes he knew at age eleven are
evidence in themselves that he *came to school* knowing a lot about
curses and countercurses--the very essence of DADA. And his teaching
in HBP shows that he knows a lot about the subject as well. With the
exception of Lupin, who knows a lot about minor Dark creatures, he's
the only competent DADA teacher HRH have ever had. We see him only
twice teaching in HBP, but it's clear even from the essays he assigns
(on Dementors and Unforgiveable Curses) that he knows his subject and
expects his students to learn what they need to know. (And note his
duelling skills in "Flight of the Prince." Snape knows the subject
very thoroughly. I would be very, very surprised if he got anything
other than an O on either his DADA or his Potions OWL.

As for Sirius and James, "brilliant enough not to need extra studying"
often equates to remembering the material long enough to do well on
the exam and then forgetting it (as I, unfortunately, know all too
well from personal experience). We see no evidence that either Sirius
or James really cared about the subject. (They got the werewolf
question right, but that related to their idea of "fun.") Severus,
OTOH, cared deeply, and no doubt remembered what he read. (Like
Hermione, he memorizes his textbooks--and, of course, the Potions that
he teaches in earlier years.) He also applied the theory of both
Potions and DADA, in the one case, improving own Potions instructions,
on the other, inventing his own spells and counterspells by his fifth
year (Levicorpus) and perhaps earlier.

I would say that the evidence that Severus Snape did extremely well on
the DADA exam is right there in plain sight. Ask Harry (before he
knows the Prince's identity) whether the Prince was a genius and which
subjects he particularly excelled in. Not Potions alone but DADA as well.

Alla:
> James died when he was what twenty one or twenty two? He is likely
to join the order right after school, IMO. You are saying that he 
> changed THAT much in a couple years? I would say he simply did not 
> have time to do so, IMO of course. <snip>

Carol:
I'm saying that heroic James was a great improvement over bullying
James and that something--saving Severus, loving and marrying
Lily?--brought out the best side of him, a side we don't see in the
Pensieve scene. (You may like the James you see ther. I see nothing
remotely admirable, even in his treatment of Remus and Peter.)

There's no *evidence* except James's opposition to the word "Mudblood"
to indicate that he cared about ideology in his fifth year or that his
hatred for Severus--his bullying two-on-one attack on a boy who was
just putting away his exam notes--had any ideological justification.
(Even if it did, the attack itself was inexcusable, but the reason for
the attack that we see in the book is his dear friend Sirius's
boredom. Even Black admits as much--"I'm not proud of it"--in OoP.) 

James's reasons for joining the Order some two years later may have
been partly ideological. We don't know. Black says that James hated
the Dark Arts. Maybe he did. Or he may simply have objected rather
strenuously to Voldemort's terror tactics, to murder and mayhem,
without caring one way or the other about the ostensible pureblood
agenda or sharing Sirius Black's passionate hatred of the Dark Arts.
(I do see James at this point as one of the good guys, but surely
opposition to Voldemort is good in itself and does not need an
underlying ideological basis to make it good and right.)
 
> Alla, who thinks that insufficient information does not necessarily 
> equal incoherent picture.
>
Carol, who thinks that "arrogant berk"/"bullying toerag" and
self-sacrificing hero do not fit neatly together and finds difficulty
in reconciling the Pensieve scene  without giving Sirius Black's less
than objective views more credit than they appear to deserve