James' essence/some Sirius and his family WAS: Re: Choice and Essentialism

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154107

> Carol responds:
> I'm saying that James's opposition to the Dark Arts, which perhaps
> existed in some form by the time he finished Hogwarts, does not
> necessarily date from his first year at Hogwarts, nor does it
> adequately explain his hatred of the equally young Severus Snape, 
who
> surely was not a Dark wizard at that age. 

Alla:

Um, yes, it does not necessarily date from his first year of 
Hogwarts , but it MAY date from his first year of Hogwarts, unless 
you have definite proof that it does not. And, NO it does not 
adequately explain his hatred of Snape, but it MAY be so.


CArol:
> I'm also saying that Sirius Black is 1) allowing his affection for
> James to color his mental picture of him, seeing the best in James 
and
> ignoring the worst in him, 2) using that "best" trait to explain
> James's dislike of Severus when most likely the original antagonism
> had some other cause, given the age of the children involved, and 3)
> using James's later opposition to Voldemort to explain away or 
excuse
> James's bullying of Severus in the Pensieve scene--at a point when
> there's no evidence other than the fact that some of his fellow
> Slytherins had become DEs to connect the teenage Severus to 
Voldemort.

Alla:
Why are you keep coming to explaining their hatred of each other with 
this statement?

I said it several times that it is NO excuse AT ALL, but 
independently of that what is the reason to doubt Sirius words?

Carol: 
> There is absolutely no evidence that even the teenage Severus (as
> opposed to the child Severus) practiced Dark magic at this
> point--except the single spell Sectumsempra, which apparently was
> invented as retaliation against "enemies," nor is there any evidence
> that he was a supporter of the Dark Lord when the Pensieve incident
> occurred. *If there had been, James would surely have mentioned it
> rather than cheerfully admitting to hexing Severus because he 
exists.*

Alla:

That is NOT quite what James says. He says because he exists if you 
know what I mean. It is your right to interpret it as typical 
statement of the bully, who loathes his victim very existence, while 
I am interpreting it as JKR hiding something in this statement.

Carol:
> If he had any such justification for his unprovoked attack, surely 
he
> would have told the girl he wanted to admire him, a girl who
> considered him "a bullying toerag," that Severus was something even
> worse. We receive no such justification, and even the "Mudblood"
> insult occurs after the fact and is not used to excuse the original
> assault. Lily asks what Severus has done as James's whole rationale 
is
> that Severus exists.

Alla:

It is book 5, NOT book 7, as I said, for all my hatred of Snape, I 
did not expect to see him in the light of book 6 at all. Hoping here 
that this was not the end of the revelations.


Carol:
> Again, I am not accusing Sirius Black of lying, unless partial 
truths
> count as lies for him as they do for Snape is "Spinner's End." Not
> lying is not the same as telling the complete truth. Black is making
> excuses for James. Yes, he *believes* what he's  saying, whether 
it's
> true or not of James at fifteen (as opposed to James at twenty-two),
> but he also knows (IMO) that it's not the *full* truth. He knows
> perfectly well that he and James attacked Severus without 
provocation
> and that James acted because he, Sirius, was bored.

Alla:

So, Sirius says partial truths now? What part of his statement is a 
partial truth? James always hated Dark Arts, what is not true here?

Carol:
> Even if James did oppose the Dark Arts as a kid at school, even if 
he
> disliked Severus because he associated him from Day One with the 
Dark
> Arts, that was no excuse for his behavior. (Nor does it excuse his
> accomplice, Sirius Black.)

Alla:

Tries VERY hard to locate the part in her post where she said that it 
was an excuse.


Carol:
 More important to the present argument, I
> see no indication of any such association of Severus Snape with the
> Dark Arts in young *James's* mind.

Alla:

We don't have it one way or another, we are not privy to James' 
thoughts unfortunately, no do we know complete story of their 
relationship.

Carol:
<SNIP>
 Or Sirius may simply have been
> projecting his reasons for hating Severus onto James. If I had to
> think of a reason why both boys hated Severus (and Sirius's hatred
> seems stronger to me than James's), I'd say that it's probably a
> hatred of Slytherin House, which they project onto the most talented
> Slytherin in their year.

Alla:
Does  "Sirius projecting his reasons for hating Severus onto James" 
means that he is a liar after all?

Carol:
> As I said, I'm not saying that Sirius is lying, only that he may be
> mistaken, looking at young James in light of the heroically dead 
adult
> James.

Alla;

He maybe mistaken? That means that statement is not true, right?


 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Why is he better at DADA? Because he reads it after exam? I see it
> as very insufficient evidence.
> > Maybe James and Sirius were brilliant enough that they did not 
need 
> > extra studying.
> 
> Carol responds:
> They apparently didn't care much about the exam, given their jokes
> about the werewolf question and the ease with which the test, once
> taken, slips from their minds. (Pure speculation here: They were 
both
> rich boys who didn't need to worry about earning a living; Severus,
> who had to use second-hand books, apparently did.)
> 
> Clearly Severus did care about the exam, which is why he was 
rereading
> the exam questions. 

Alla:

They did not care about the exam means they knew the subject worse? 
You know, two students whom Mcgonagall remembers as two of the most 
talented kids in school?

She makes this statement by the way,when she has no reason to think 
fondly of Sirius AT ALL, when she thinks of him as murderer, and she 
still acknowledges his talents. Is she mistaken too?

I can make the directly opposite argument - the fact that James and 
Sirius joke about exam means that they are very confident about the 
subject, that they know it so well and the fact that Snape rereads 
the questions means that he is NOT sure in his answers.



Carol:
> As for Sirius and James, "brilliant enough not to need extra 
studying"
> often equates to remembering the material long enough to do well on
> the exam and then forgetting it (as I, unfortunately, know all too
> well from personal experience). 

Alla:

Hm, I know the exact opposite from the personal experience too.



> Alla:
> > James died when he was what twenty one or twenty two? He is likely
> to join the order right after school, IMO. You are saying that he 
> > changed THAT much in a couple years? I would say he simply did 
not 
> > have time to do so, IMO of course. <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> I'm saying that heroic James was a great improvement over bullying
> James and that something--saving Severus, loving and marrying
> Lily?--brought out the best side of him, a side we don't see in the
> Pensieve scene. (You may like the James you see ther. I see nothing
> remotely admirable, even in his treatment of Remus and Peter.)

Alla:

James joined the Order at seventeen or eighteen, as I said it is your 
right to think that he changed so much, I find it HIGLY unlikely, 
personally.

And I do like James after pensieve scene more, but not because of his 
actions there, but because it added complexity to his character.



Carol:
> James's reasons for joining the Order some two years later may have
> been partly ideological. We don't know. Black says that James hated
> the Dark Arts. Maybe he did. Or he may simply have objected rather
> strenuously to Voldemort's terror tactics, to murder and mayhem,
> without caring one way or the other about the ostensible pureblood
> agenda or sharing Sirius Black's passionate hatred of the Dark Arts.
> (I do see James at this point as one of the good guys, but surely
> opposition to Voldemort is good in itself and does not need an
> underlying ideological basis to make it good and right.)

Alla:

To me joining the order means opposing what Voldemort stands for and 
that is what I mean by ideological reasons and since Snape joined 
Voldemort at some point, yes, I think that James hated what Voldemort 
and Snape stood for ( at least at some point).

JMO,

Alla, who can totally see Snape joining Voldemort while still at 
school at least as one of his minions or helpers if not full pledged 
DE. Draco's situation could be a nice foreshadowing for that, me 
thinks.