Being Good and Evil (was:Re: Harry's arrogance (was Evil Snape)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 154459

Phoenixgod:
> Don't play the marrieta card with me :) I have no sympathy for 
her. 
> I do agree that JKR's humor with the good guys has a surprising 
dark 
> color to it, I think it fits well with wizarding world. they live 
in 
> a world with very few consequences that magic can't make better. 
> makes sense to me that they would push the envelope wover what 
could 
> be done. I just don't marrieta is a good example. She's a traitor 
to 
> the school and to the group. she deserves what she gets.

Magpie:
But what does that prove, exactly? Betsy thinks it's harsh, you 
think Marietta deserves what she gets.  The facts stay the same, so 
obviously one side isn't just the end of the story. 

Pheonixgod:
Hermione: He really doesn't like Hermione in the beginning of the
series, yet after the troll incident, despite the fact that Hermione
is still basically the same annoying person she was before the
incident, Harry becomes best friends with her. Speaks well of his
ability to admit that he misjudged someone and take a second look at
them.

Sirius: Harry wanted to murder Sirius in the beginning of Azkaban.
yet in the climactic scene, Harry manages to control his bloodlust
and divine that something else was going on. Once again, shifts
gears quickly and shows good judgement.

Magpie:
Well, yes and no.  These aren't quite the same challenge Harry faces 
with somebody like Snape. Hermione wasn't someone Harry hated, he 
just found her annoying--and then she protected him.  Sirius was 
someone Harry *thought* he hated because of what he *thought* he did-
-and that was taken away.  It's not quite the same thing as asking 
Harry to examine feelings about people he actually has real trouble 
with, the ones that really press his buttons.  Harry is not exactly 
controlling his bloodlust when it comes to Sirius, he stands over 
someone he thinks he should want to kill and doesn't.  It seems like 
he's experiencing something more like Draco faces with Dumbledore.

Pheonixgod:
> 
> I doubt Draco has any close friends, which again, speaks well of 
> Harry's wisdom in making allies who will stand by him through 
thick 
> and thin.

Magpie:
So we should just assume he has close friends for some reason?  
Because Harry isn't and doesn't want to be?  Why does the other side 
have to be incapable of having ties to each other?  It doesn't seem 
to me that so far Draco's got a problem with people not standing by 
him.

  
Phoenixgod:
> well, except for his father.  And Dumbledore's fallibility. Oh and 
> the prophecy.  Harry has had plenty of crisis in his beliefs and 
> assumptions.  He just handles them better than Draco does. He's 
also 
> much more proactive than Draco. Our little Dragon is far to 
> Slytherin--everything he does is manipuation and misdirection, it 
> circles around the problem without dealing with it.  Do you really 
> think that Harry would have sat around and done what Voldemort 
> wanted him to do if his mother was in trouble, or would he have 
> tried to do something to rescue her?

Magpie:
That's creating a totally different situation to say that it's just 
Harry trying to rescue his mother.  Draco is trying to do something 
to rescue her, and Voldemort to Draco is like Dumbledore (not 
Voldemort) to Harry.  He's having a completely different challenge 
to all his beliefs than Harry has so no, I don't think you can just 
say that Harry would have handled it better. It's apples and oranges-
-and I'm glad we get both in the book.  

Phoenixgod: 
> As much as people want to paint Harry's directness as a weakness, 
it 
> is not. it is his strength. 

Magpie:
Yes, it is his strength, but that doesn't mean it doesn't offer 
challenges when Harry's in a position where his particular strength 
isn't what's called for.


> Once again. Harry would have tried to do something on his own 
> instead of relying on other people to do it for him.  He doesn't 
> need someone to *attract* him to the side of light. his good sense 
> does that for him.

Magpie:
Harry has a LOT attracting him to the side of Light and he's in a 
completely different starting place from Draco, who, imo, shouldn't 
be judged on how he's not Harry.  It's not common sense alone that 
gives Harry his anti-Voldemort passion, and it's not simply a lack 
of common sense that's driving Draco.  I think one has to look at 
Draco's story from Draco's pov and accept that his beliefs are just 
as real as someone else's.

Pheonixgod: 
> True. Because Draco doesn't have the sense to see past the end of 
> his nose when it comes to people he already made assumptions 
about. 
> An idiot could see that Dumbledore cares about all of his 
students, 
> Draco just didn't want to believe that.  He'd rather play at 
> currying favor with the dark lord.

Magpie:
An idiot couldn't necessarily see that at all.  You've got Harry's 
pov, Harry who gets special favorite from Dumbledore.  I'm sure 
there are lots of students who don't think of Dumbledore as caring 
about them as much as others.  Different people can have genuinely 
different experiences of the world that leads them to think 
different things without just being idiots.  Let Draco go through 
his own dark night of the soul, not just judge him for not being 
Harry.  He's got real, passionate reasons for wanting to "play 
currying favor with the dark lord," which makes it more dramatic 
when he realizes he's been wrong.  Wrong in a way that Harry's never 
been.  But no, I don't think you can just say Harry would handle it 
differently than Draco--if we really want Harry in Draco's shoes 
then that means all the way.  Harry is Lucius and Narcissa's son, 
loves them the way Draco does, worships his father (and his father's 
alive so we're not talking about the idealized portrait that an 
already independent Harry can reject when it doesn't live up to his 
fantasy).  Given Harry's basic personality no, I don't think there's 
anything in him that guarantees he would have rejected the Dark Lord 
as easily as he does now. I'll go so far as to say it would be at 
least as interesting to watch Harry have this kind of crisis of 
faith as it is to watch Draco have it.

-m