Being Good and Evil (was:Re: Harry's arrogance (was Evil Snape)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 154474

> >>Phoenixgod:
> > Don't play the marrieta card with me :) I have no sympathy for 
> > her. 
> > <snip>
> > She's a traitor to the school and to the group. she deserves    
> > what she gets.
 
> >>Magpie:
> But what does that prove, exactly? Betsy thinks it's harsh, you 
> think Marietta deserves what she gets.  The facts stay the same,   
> so obviously one side isn't just the end of the story. 

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  This is a *perfect* example of the "Because I am Good what 
I do is Good, but if you do the same thing it's Bad, because you are 
Bad" mindset.  That there are no rules governing behavior.  Anything 
goes if you're the right sort of person.  The Death Eaters can 
torment a family of muggles and it's bad, because they're bad.  But 
the twins can torment a family of muggles and it's funny, because 
they are good.
 
It's like, once Harry defeats Voldemort he can set up his own little 
totalitarian dicatorship, and it'll be okay because Harry is a good 
and benevolent guy.  (Only the bad people will be sent to the camps, 
erm, re-education facilities.  Run by Hermione.  Because she cares.)

> >>Pheonixgod:
> I doubt Draco has any close friends, which again, speaks well of 
> Harry's wisdom in making allies who will stand by him through 
> thick and thin.

Betsy Hp:
Really?  Draco is at his lowest in HBP.  His family is in disgrace, 
he's an utter mess, and he's blowing off his classes and quidditch.  
He's lost his position, his looks, and the talents he brought to the 
table in the race for the House and Quidditch cups.  And yet, 
Crabble and Goyle are willing to dress up as little girls for him, 
and Pansy and Blaise still seem willing to hang with him.  Draco 
certainly doesn't appear to be shunned by his house, and he's going 
through some pretty "thin" times.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > And it's not like the "good guys" have behaved in such a stellar 
> > fashion that the rightness of their view point is obvious. The   
> > Weasleys behave like thugs and their father uses his power to    
> > persecute Draco's father.

> >>Gerry:
> Thugs? How? Persecute? You mean doing his job and searching Malfoy
> Manor again because the known Death Eater according to Harry has
> something highly illegal and dark hidden there?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I think the Weasleys definitely come across as thugs.  And they 
certainly appear that way to Draco: Arthur going all caveman on 
Lucius in CoS in the bookstore, Ron constantly lurching at Draco 
with fists raised, the twins (and Harry) attacking Draco, the twins 
nearly murdering a classmate, the twins hissing tiny little firsties 
sorted into Slytherin.  And Arthur uses his position at the Ministry 
to pass laws and push for raids that hurt Draco's father.  I'm quite 
sure Draco heard his father complaining about it at the manor, going 
by Lucius's complaints in Knockturn Alley.  Especially since it was 
probably the impetus to Lucius courting Fudge.

Not that the Malfoys are perfect, themselves, of course.  But to 
Draco I'm sure they are.  So those who brawl, and manipulate, and 
cheat to bring down his own could never be defined, by Draco, as 
good.  In the end they behave exactly as Lucius would (if not in 
quite the same style) to get what they want.  Again, there's not a 
huge difference in behavior seperating the good guys from the bad 
guys.  Not where Draco would see it, anyway.

> >>Alla:
> As I told someone off list, I don't like generalisations, but from 
> my life experience people who hate other people because of their
> different ethnicity ( that is my experience, so I will stick to   
> that) generally do not change ( I mean, I am sure some are and     
> maybe many are, I just have not met them).
>  So, Draco to me is a disgusting little bigot and whatever he     
> gets, he deserves.

Betsy Hp:
I've met bigots who've changed (some in my own family) so there you 
are. <g>  But the thing is, to Draco the *Order* is made up of 
disgusting little bigots that should get what they deserve.  It's 
not until HBP that Draco sees or experiences anything that would 
tell him differently.  So Draco is facing a moment where he can step 
out of his family's shadow and examine things for himself.  I feel 
like Harry will need to do something similar himself, especially 
since he's yet to question his own bigotry.

> >>Geoff:
> Draco is only changing slowly because, like a glacier, he is      
> moving through the same sort of territory all the time. Possibly   
> until the imprisonment of Lucius at the end of OOTP, he has never 
> suffered major shocks or changes to his life style and, hence, his 
> view of life.
> Harry, on the other hand, is a river in an earthquake zone. He has 
> had to contend with a whole series of major shifts in his life and 
> his ideas over a period of six years up to the end of HBP. His    
> entire world view has been turned upside-down...
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
See, I don't see that Harry has gone through any turning upside-down 
of his world.  Voldemort killed his parents; Voldemort is evil.  
That's a truth that will not change.  Just as, Dumbledore is good 
has not and (IMO) will not change for Harry.

You mention sheer dumb luck in the part I snipped.  But it seems 
that Harry has just lucked into being on the "good" side.  He's 
never been tempted by Voldemort.  He's never had to question his 
mentor's goodness.  He's never questioned his own judgement of good 
and evil.  And it seems to me that if Harry *never* has to question 
himself on that basic question, he won't end the series fully grown.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I think these sort of actions wouldn't bother me quite
> > so much if they were *seen* as bad behavior. I *think*
> > JKR is relatively neutral when those scenes occur.

> >>houyhnhnm:
> But they *do* occur and many readers are aware of them.
> She could easily have left out morally questionable actions
> committed by the "good" characters, it seems to me, if she
> wanted to write a black and white adventure story in which
> everything the good guys do is good just because they're
> the good guys.
> <snip>
> I think maybe she has only appeared to be neutral about
> the morally questionable actions of her "good" charqcters
> the better to surprise readers with the ending.
> I'm hoping anyway.

Betsy Hp:
Houyhnhnm, I think I love you. <g>  This really makes so much sense 
to me.  I think what bothered me was that we're so close to the end 
and there hasn't been a moment of, "hmm, maybe that wasn't such a 
good act, even though I'm a good guy."  However, it will make for a 
bigger bang, I guess, if that realization hits Harry (and hopefully 
his friends, especially scary Hermione) all at once.  A sort of 
super-intense moment of crisis.  I will join you in the hopeful 
corner. <g>

Betsy Hp, who had to type about half of this all over again, blech