Voldy's weaknesses as a villain WAS:Re: Why does Snape wants DADA job if it cursed? LONG

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 149040

> >>Lupinlore:
> > Villains never really make sense, that's part of the reason     
> > they're villains.  
> > <snip>
> I've never found that particular rule to lead me far wrong, in    
> either life or fiction.  
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
In RL that would put criminal psychologists out of job, wouldn't 
it?  In the Potterverse it would make all of Harry's lessons with 
Dumbledore in HBP a waste of time.  Voldemort is crazy, certainly, 
but he does seem to operate by a certain set of rules.  Dumbledore 
was observant enough to figure out a good deal of those rules, and 
he tried to pass that knowledge and ability on to Harry.  Here's 
hoping it worked. <g>

Though I will agree that villain's *goals* tend to be pretty much 
insane (e.g. "I think I'll make a suit out of girl skin, then I'll 
be as pretty as Mother!").  But the methodology of achieving those 
goals (learn tanning and tailoring skills, figure out how to nab 
women of the proper size, etc.), and even the underlying need 
beneath those goals (for Mother to love me) do make sense.  (I 
used "Silence of the Lambs" for my examples, fyi.) 

> >>Lupinlore:
> Voldemort is acknowledged by everyone as a villain.  Does 
> anything about Voldemort make any sense?  The man's the most 
> incompetent villain this side of Gargamel.  Let's see:
> 
> 1) We could have had fake!Moody enchant a book as a portkey, call 
> Potter down to his office, and say "Oh Potter, hand me that book, 
> will you?" Later he could say, "No, I haven't seen Potter, Albus.  
> He's probably out watching the Tournament." Instead we go through 
> this ridiculous and insanely complicated Rube Goldberg plot in    
> which the person you want to kidnap is placed front and center     
> under the gaze of wizards from three different nations.  That      
> makes a lot of sense, yes indeed it does.

Betsy Hp:
To a master of psychological terror?  Oh yes, it certainly does.  
Harry, while under the attention of the entire WW, while being 
actively protected by the most powerful wizard known to the WW, 
disappears.

Imagine you're sitting in the stands at the third task, four 
champions go in, you wait with eager anticipation, and only three 
champions come out.  The teachers, the adults, *Dumbledore* go 
hurtling into the maze, but no Harry.  They scour the grounds the 
school, the Forbidden Forest, but no Harry.  Aurors go on high 
alert, the Ministry assures everyone that everything is under 
control, but no Harry.  And quietly and inevitably rumors start 
spreading that *He* has returned....  

Or, his dead body suddenly appears, gripping the Triwizard Cup.  The 
picture of Harry's corpse would make front page news for weeks.  And 
then the whispers would start....

It makes perfect sense to me, if you take Voldemort's general M.O. 
(one that served him quite well in the past) into consideration.  I 
mean, come on, the guy's been missing for *years*, he's got to have 
his dramatic come back.

> >>Lupinlore:
> 2)  We forget to warn our DEs "Oh, by the way, you can apparate,   
> you know.  Try using that in the MoM to get behind the kids once   
> they move away from the shelves.  And don't forget about those    
> nice unforgivables you are supposedly so good with."

Betsy Hp:
Actually, I don't think you can apparate in the DoM.  Does anyone?  
The Order come pouring through the doorways, and Voldemort himself 
appears up where the floos are located.  Also, don't forget every 
single child was down and Harry was handing over the prophecy when 
the Order members appeared.  The kids did a good job of scuttling, 
but that was a holding action.  And it didn't really hold for too 
long.

(Obviously, the fact that no child died was a bit unrealistic, but I 
give JKR a pass since this is a children's book.)

> >>Lupinlore:
> 3)  For that matter, Voldy might have remembered that, as he is 
> featured in the prophecy, he can take it down from the shelf as    
> easily as Harry.  And since he evidently has no problem apparating 
> right into the ministry in the dead of night, he could easily     
> polyjuice himself, go in, and get it anytime he wants.  But no, we 
> have yet another nonsensical and totally inept Rube Goldberg ploy 
> designed to get Potter to take the prophecy down.

Betsy Hp:
Well, we know he couldn't apparate directly into the Prophecy room.  
I suspect he could only apparate into the MoM's foyer.  And he does, 
within Nagini, to do a bit of reconnaissance just before Christmas.  
Where he discovers that Dumbledore is expecting, no *hoping* for 
Voldemort to make just this sort of move so he can finally prove 
that Voldemort is actually back.

So Voldemort goes to plan B) Get the Potter brat to do it for him.  
And Harry obliges.  But two things occur that Voldemort couldn't 
have counted on: 

1) Potter's friends go with him.  Completely outside of Voldemort's 
realm of understanding is a friendship so loyal people would 
actually risk their own necks to protect and help someone who 
emphatically *doesn't* want protection or help.  (Harry really, 
really, really, wanted to go alone.  Voldemort would have known 
this, having been in Harry's head for so long.)

2) Snape is a spy.  Instead of cheerfully sending Potter off to his 
doom, Snape informed the Order who got there just in time to keep 
Malfoy from getting the Prophecy.  Voldemort did not, and probably 
still doesn't, know of Snape's key assist here.  

> >>Lupinlore:
> 4)  We don't like the idea of dying, so we turn ourselves into a 
> snake.  The man really needs to read the Evil Overlord's Handbook.

Betsy Hp:
Huh?  Voldemort's a snake?  Do you mean his red eyes and missing 
nose thing?  Because I think that's why he stopped at seven 
horcruxes.  Also, re: the Evil Overlord's Handbook, Voldemort *did* 
read it, and it let him down big time.  Specifically:

"73. If I learn that a callow youth has begun a quest to destroy me, 
I will slay him while he is still a callow youth instead of waiting 
for him to mature.

"130. I will not order my trusted lieutenant to kill the infant who 
is destined to overthrow me -- I'll do it myself."

From: http://www.sterlingtwilight.net/evil/handbook.html#top

I'm being tongue-in-cheek here, and obviously the long winded speech 
and decision to duel Harry in GoF are examples of bad villain 
behavior.  But I do think JKR has tried to make Voldemort as... 
dangerous as possible.  For a children's series, anyway.

Yes, he has his insane obsession with eternal life, and yes that 
obsession has lead him astray. (Tom Riddle could have become quite a 
powerful MoM if he'd so desired.  And I bet he could have pushed a 
*lot* of anti-Muggle and Muggle-born legislation through.)  But 
without the insane obsession you don't have a villain.  Hannible 
Lecter would have remained a brilliant doctor of, erm, something 
(psychology?) if not for his killing and eating people thing.  But 
there *is* a logic within the insanity.

(Strangely enough, without an insane obsession you don't get genius 
either.  I mean, what if Alexander the Great hadn't had his 
wanderlust?  Weird, huh?)

> >>Lupinlore: 
> 5) We manage to get a direct route into Hogwarts, so do we come   
> ourself to deal with our most hated enemy.  No.  We send the same 
> group who couldn't handle a half-dozen adolescents into a castle   
> packed with adolescents.

Betsy Hp:
And they kill our hated enemy.  So victory for Voldemort.  I'm not 
sure where he goes wrong here.

> >>Lupinlore:
> 6)  We had a strategy of legilimency that worked wonders last     
> time. What do we do this time?  Oh, that love HURTS.  Makes you    
> wonder how he's going to deal with it the first time he molts.

Betsy Hp:
I don't get this either.  What does Voldemort want out of Harry's 
mind after OotP that he can't get?  Do you think Voldemort could 
have made *Harry* kill Dumbledore?  I think that would have been 
seriously underestimating Harry, which *would* have been a mistake.

Or are you upset that Voldemort has a weakness?  *Everyone* has a 
weakness. I feel like I'm missing the point here.

> >>Lupinlore: 
> 7)  The REALLY big one.  Voldy is afraid of dying.  Okay, fine.    
> Why doesn't he go off by himself, make his little horcruxes, and   
> live unhappily ever after? What's getting in the way?  Because,    
> for some reason, he wants to take over the Wizarding World.  Why?  
> What does taking over the wizarding world have to do with making   
> horcruxes and living forever?  Nothing.  In fact, taking over the 
> wizarding world is directly antithetical to his goal, as it draws 
> attention to himself when he would be far better served by        
> obscuring his goals and actions.  
> So why does he want to rule the world.  Sigh.  For the same reason 
> all villains want to rule the world -- he just WANTS to.  Some    
> great and deeply revealing motivation that is, :-)).

Betsy Hp:
Villains are about chaos, I think.  They want to unmake the world as 
they know it, and though they say it's because they want to put a 
perfect world up in its place, it's the destruction that only ever 
seems to occur.  In fiction this is even more apparent.  I don't 
want to go to an extreme here.  Voldemort is a story-book villain, 
and he has story-book villain traits.  But seeing his background 
explained a lot to me.  There's a *reason* behind his madness.  And 
so far, his reason has served him quite well.

Of course his need to both live forever *and* control the universe 
fall right into the trap of the Fisherman's Wife.  But Voldemort 
came pretty darn close to having it all.  If he'd been able to 
ignore the prophecy, if he hadn't given Lily a choice....  The thing 
is, he *is* going after the impossible.  There's *always* going to 
be an "if".  It takes a certain amount of hubris to become an Evil 
Overlord.  And hubris makes some of the handbook's rules impossible 
to follow.  So cut the poor Evil Overlord some slack.  He's fighting 
an uphill battle here. <g> 

> >>Lupinlore:
> 7b) A corollary to the above.  As has been pointed out further up 
> the thread, why does he call attention to himself by using such   
> NOTICEABLE objects for his horcruxes.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
What noticable?  The diary was in an Order member's household for 
weeks, and then right under Dumbledore's nose for a year.  No one 
noticed it at all.  I don't recall any noise about the famously 
missing "Cup of Hufflepuff" or "Locket of Slytherin".  And who gave 
two thoughts to the Gaunt's missing ring?

Dumbledore, cleverest wizard of the WW, didn't even *consider* 
horcruxes until CoS, and he'd been fighting Voldemort for *years*.  
Malfoy didn't know what he had, and I don't think Voldemort should 
have expected one of his smarter minions to start treating his 
sacred stuff as fodder for personal vendettas.

For a story-book villain, I think Voldemort does pretty well for 
himself.  Except, of course, that he *must* fail.  He's not only 
working against the WW, Dumbledore and Harry.  The *author* is out 
to get him too.  Now *that's* a weakness. <g>

Betsy Hp, thrilled with the Alexander the Great thing, ticks it off 
her list