Snape Survey, Snapeity, Dumbledore's sacrifice.

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 149110

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" <eggplant107 at ...>
wrote:
>
> "Sydney" <sydpad@> wrote:
> 
> > I honestly have no idea how the tower
> > scene can be read in any other way after,
> > I suppose, the initial shock if you didn't
> > expect it) than that Dumbledore is pleading
> > with Snape to follow through with some
> > plan and kill him.
>
> EggPlant:
> 
> To me the obvious explanation is that Dumbledore was pleading 
> with Snape to tell him he had not been a fool for 17 years. ...
>  but none of them [other explanations] make a lot of sense to me,
> and nobody, absolutely positively nobody, has managed to come up 
> with a plausible explanation of why Snape murdering the best 
> wizard the good guys possessed helps the good guys. That has not 
> aided the good Snape theory. 

bboyminn:

Yet, you offer no alternative scenario, and neither does anyone else.
At least none that take all the fact into consideration.

Yes, I'm sure the obvious alternative scenario is for Snape to 'fight
and win'. But you can't really say that. You can say 'fight', but
Dumbledore is too weak to stand, Harry is frozen, and Snape is
surrounded by vicious malicious murderous Death Eaters. So, again, you
can propose 'fight' as an alternative, but the greatest likelihood of
outcome is 'lose'. Now Dumbledore and Snape are dead, and a great
likelihood that Harry is too.

Is that really a better outcome than what actually happened? I don't
think so.

So, maybe Snape says, 'Oh, just forget about Dumbledore, forget the
whole Hogwarts invasion/murder plan, and let's just go have a drink or
two'. Again, not a very likely scenario. 

> EggPlant:
>
> Nor can anybody explain why nobody informed Harry of this 
> incredibly loopy plan so he would not hate a "good" Snape 
> with as much intensity as he hates Voldemort, and probably 
> put as much effort into killing Snape as Voldemort. JKR is a 
> wonderful writer but nobodycould make a good book 7 out of 
>that bilge.
> 

bboyminn:

Again, you are assuming there was a grand elaborate detailed
pre-conceived plan. I suspect there was NOT. Once again, I point out
the absurdity of any 'grand plan' that involves the precise
cooperation of your deadly and slightly deranged sworn enemy. I
suspect they had a general idea of the general contingencies and
priorities. When Dumbledore pleads with Snape, I suspect he is
pleading for Snape to remember what their priorities are and to do
what must be done; terrible as it is to do.

Others see Dumbledore as having been murdered in cold blood. But I
suspect Dumbledore and Snape (and myself) see him as a casualty of
war; a terrible, horrible, gut-wrenching casualty of war. It's no
wonder Snape face expressed hatred and revultion. He was doing a hated
and revolting thing, yet, it was none the less, the terrible thing
that must be done. 

> EggPlant:
>
> It's not a prediction but it's possible that Harry will dispose
> of Voldemort half way through the book and for the rest of the 
> book he's after Snape. Snape murdered Dumbledore and that in my
> book forever puts him in the evil camp; ...

bboyminn:

Is there really any aspect of war that feels grand, noble, and heroic
to those in the trenches? To the freezing, mud-spattered, poorly lead,
poorly feed, poorly supplied, cannon fodder? Is there any aspect of
war that lives up to any concept of heroism in any place other than
history books? War is a terrible, horrible afront to humanity. As I
have said before it is mankinds greatest failing. But as long as the
Voldemort's of the world exist, as long as the irrational deranged
power-hungry fanatics of the world can convince people to follow them,
the greatest failing of mankind will continue. And when it comes, we
simply have to face it with all it's horror, violation, and atrocity.

> Eggplant:
>
> ...however I do think in book 7 we will for the very first time
> find examples of Snape doing good things, perhaps very good 
> things. I, like many others, think Snape loved Lilly; perhaps 
> the reason that Snape Hates Harry is not because he resembles
> James but because he blames Harry for Lilly's  death. After all,
> if Harry had never been born Lilly would still be alive. 
> 
> Eggplant
>

bboyminn:

People frequently make that mistake of thinking that someone who is
'good' is someone who is 'nice'. That a good leader is a pleasant
leader. That a good hero is a pleasant hero. Sadly, and rightly, that
is not true. As we see from Dumbledore's example, it is lonely at the
top. A good leader must be cold and ruthless. There is only room for
compasion after the fact. In the moment of decision, when a General
must spend the lives of his men like they were nothing but toy
soldiers being removed from a game board, that general does not have
room for compassion. Of course, he also has no room for impulsive or
irrational acts. It is one thing to spend the lives of men, but quite
another to waste them.

Snape is that General faced with that decision. He must weigh the cost
of each course of action, and choose the one with the least damage and
the greatest long term good. In that moment, the objective wipes
compassion from his mind. When the war is won, there will be time for
quiet reflection and compassion, but in the moment, he has an instant
to decide on a course of action, and then to act. Like any
dispassionate General, Snape has no choice but to remove the tin
soldier labeled 'Dumbledore' from the game board. It is a horrible act
by a nasty person, but a necessary act, and one in which few to no
alternatives were available.

Just passing it along.

Steve/bboyminn